Catholics VS Protestants Debate Thread

[Huggy Bear]

Welcome to the Catholic VS Protestant Discussion Thread on atheist forum! This thread is all about debating which form of Christianity is true, Catholic or Protestant. Feel free to discuss any topic relating to Catholicism or Protestantism(all denominations 33,000+ Welcome!)for or against arguments.
I Catholic will start this off. Questions Catholics usually ask protestants. There’s more to it than just these.

Ultimately I know where you're going with this, but I'll answer your questions as promised. I think it would be best to address the main point instead of beating around the bush.

Anyway here goes.

·        If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press? 

 
I'm not sure what you're saying, are you implying that books didn't exist before the printing press?

·        If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

It wasn't that people were illiterate, it's just that many couldn't read Latin. 

·        Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book? The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

I do recall Jesus being tempted by the Devil and Jesus quoting nothing but scripture at him, sounds like he was utilizing Sola Scripture to me.

·        Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

The Bible is not just a book it is the Word, using that context you'll find the Apostles mention the Word quite frequently. 

·        Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

The book of Isaiah is essentially the bible in compact form

http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Is...hBible.php

Isaiah is like a miniature Bible. The first thirty-nine chapters (like the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament) are filled with judgment upon immoral idolatrous men. Judah has sinned; the surrounding nations have sinned; the whole earth has sinned. Judgment must come, for God cannot allow such blatant sin to go unpunished forever. But the final twenty-seven chapters (like the twenty-seven books of the New Testament) declare a message of hope. The Messiah is coming as a Savior and a Sovereign to bear a cross and to wear a crown

Hence Isaiah has 66 chapters to the Bibles 66 books.

·        some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)? 5) Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

Well since this question is based off protestant "claims" im going to skip it since protestant beliefs vary, personally I'm not sure what you mean by the condemnation of oral tradition.

·        If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

One word; Tradition.

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

There is a story in the bible where the Hebrews would gather manna (bread that fell from heaven) every day, for they were expressly forbidden to store any of it, because it would be rotten by the next day.

The manna represented the Word of God, did not Jesus state:

"I am the true bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will not die as your ancestors did (even though they ate the manna) but will live forever."

Jesus is the word made flesh right? How this applies to your question is that each age of the church had a measure of light to walk in, and as the ages progressed they received a little more light (Revelation).

If I were to make an analogy I'd say picture a dark room, if I a shone a weak light into the room, you'd be able to see into it but not very well, as I turn up the brightness more will be revealed. So where you weren't able to make out much initially, each subsequent person that comes along will see more than the last.

Martin Luther had part of the picture, he did NOT have all of it. after his death the majority of his followers held to the TRADITIONS of Martin Luther's teachings and formed the Lutheran denomination which held to the doctrine of Justification and they never progressed to sanctification.  

Therefore their doctrine (manna) is rotten since it is from days past.

The same goes for the Methodist denomination. John Wesley came along with Justification AND Sanctification, but after his death his followers held to their traditions and formed the Methodist organization, and their doctrine too became rotten. They never progressed to the baptism of the holy spirit, that was the Pentecostals... see the pattern?

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The word 'angel' comes from the Greek word 'angelos' which simply means 'messenger'.

Luther and Wesley were just two of the seven messengers. All will be revealed after the last messenger (who has already come and gone btw).

·        If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

I think that you're just playing on words here.

If the Bible is the Word of God, and Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, that makes the Word the foundation of the church. You should know that the church is part of the body of Christ, you can't separate the church from the Word.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

·        Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority? Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?

The first part of your question I touched on, as for the second part, I supposed a Church can make up whatever creed it wants, but does it line up with scripture?

·        If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?

Already touched on this.

[Mr Greene]

Sectarianism? And a rather narrow definition.
Interesting choice of venue too, though xtian forums would probably delete the thread and ban the poster on principle. 

[Faith No More]

What's the point of simply debating this? Shouldn't you guys just arm yourselves and battle to death in a Colosseum?

Surely the last one standing will have been sanctioned by god.

[Tonus]

I dunno... I think even if it was caught on tape, skeptics would still say it was a trick or w/e. I don't think anything would be evidence enough.

If it was like the bigfoot tape or the loch ness monster photograph, I would have to agree with them.

But as for "anything" not being enough... it seems to me that theists do not trust God's ability to convince people that He is real. Mind you, it's a valid concern considering how few people agree on which version of God is the real one. And the Bible does give the impression that God simply isn't that convincing. So many people who had direct evidence of His existence --including a third of the angels in heaven, who saw Him in his full power and glory!-- nonetheless rejected him, even though at least some of them knew what the consequences of that action were.

I mean, Adam and Eve had a direct and personal relationship with God. They got to speak with him and hear back from him. They knew him as a person, presumably as a father-figure and guide and as the magnificent and mighty God that he is. And yet, all it took was a chatty snake to get Eve to agree that God was a liar (!!!) and to violate his direct command not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. And all she had to do was offer Adam a piece and he was all in! When I was young, if my mother had told me not to touch the fruit of a particular tree I can assure you that not even a talking snake was going to get me to risk having my ass turned into bloody ribbons, okay? And I'll bet a lot of us know at least a few people whose impact on our behavior was similar. Which means all of those people were a far more effective teacher than GOD.

Do you see why a videotape might not convince a lot of us?

[Drich]

Moohahaha, I mean welcome to the forum, i will be glad to try and answer your questions! This looks like lots of fun!!

Welcome to the Catholic VS Protestant Discussion Thread on atheist forum! This thread is all about debating which form of Christianity is true, Catholic or Protestant. Feel free to discuss any topic relating to Catholicism or Protestantism(all denominations 33,000+ Welcome!)for or against arguments.

First let me say, I don't think either is the 'true form of Christianity.' (meaning a 'true' singular religious denomination) Nor do I think that any of us have the right to call ourselves 'Christians.' Only Jesus Gets to decide who is and is not Christian. He is not a respecter of the titles we take or award ourselves with. One is either a follower of Christ or he is not in this life. Whether or not that saves us in the end is up to Christ alone.

That said i will answer your questions anyway, just remember to look at the answers through this lens or they maynot make sense at first.

I Catholic will start this off. Questions Catholics usually ask protestants. There’s more to it than just these.
·        If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?

Because a 'book' is a modern term that necessitates the advent of the printing press. In truth "the Following" is based on the written word. Books, scrolls, letters they are just vessels in which the words are written.

So to dispell your term completely "religion of the book" is an intellectually dishonest construct used to encapsulate the religion to one specific form of written communication, when in fact history bears out the religion is based on several different forms of written communication including but not limited to a book.
So to ask your question, is to commit a logical fallacy of begging the question. As you wrongly predetermine and set parameters to the historical context of Christianity that is not accurate nor does it reflect how Christianity evolved from hand written papyrus and Parchment scrolls to 'books' that would necessitate a printing press.

·        If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

again in your form your question fallaciously "beggs the question" but if ask the question using the term 'written religion' instead the answer is as follows:

The same way Judaism did.
It was written out and the word read/preserved though formal readings.
(ironically how it was done up to the point the printing press put a book in everyone's hand.)

·        Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?  The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

The doctrine of sola scriptura was to combat the equally erroneous doctrine that establishes a Pharisaical hierarchy that allows subsequent church leaders to contradict the teachings of Christ or the Apostles.
To directly answer your question:
Paul teaches us that All scripture is God breathed and is good for use in the life of a follower 2Tim3:16.
The idea being if all scripture is God breathed then who are we/any of us to change it?

Your next few question identify the passages where Christ Himself admonishes the pharisees for teaching 'tradition' rather than from scripture.

·        Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

2 timothy minus the the word book, again that is a modern term describing the vessel the scripture is recorded in. the content of said book is what is being perserved in 2 Tim. Jesus Himself takes a similar position in mark 7 by putting the written word of God over the religious rules created by the Pharisaical hierarchy.
13 So you are teaching that it is not important to do what God said. You think it is more important to follow those traditions you have, which you pass on to others. And you do many things like that.” similar lesson is taught by Christ in Mat 15. (where the 'church' of his day or rather their version of the pope's infallible rules are Challenged and cast aside by Christ in favor for the written word found in Scripture.)

·        Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

the table of content

·        some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813).

these verses do not support an oral tradition... Jesus is taking the pharisees to task about their oral traditions in contrast to what is written in Mat 15 and in Mark 7 (why do you do what is traditional, verses what is written.This what is being asked by Christ here)

If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)? 5)

Read the rest of the chapter..
3 So you should obey them. Do everything they tell you to do. But their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they don’t do those things themselves. 4 They make strict rules that are hard for people to obey. They try to force others to obey all their rules. But they themselves will not try to follow any of those rules.

5 “The only reason they do what they do is for other people to see them. They make the little Scripture boxes[a] they wear bigger and bigger. And they make the tassels on their prayer clothes long enough for people to notice them. 6 These men love to have the places of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues. 7 They love for people to show respect to them in the marketplaces and to call them ‘Teacher.’

8 “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher. 9 And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven. 10 And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah. 11 Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you. 12 People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
You really need to keep reading.. the chapter

In short Christ does not say obey them because they have done anything right or they are good examples, but obey them because that is your lot. That is what you have been given over to do right or wrong. In turn Christ also says because their lot was to lead you properly and they lead you astray they will be judged harshly and accordingly.

13 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites! You close the way for people to enter God’s kingdom. You yourselves don’t enter, and you stop those who are trying to enter. 14 [c]

15 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites. You travel across the seas and across different countries to find one person who will follow your ways. When you find that person, you make him worse than you are. And you are so bad that you belong in hell!

16 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You guide the people, but you are blind. You say, ‘If anyone uses the name of the Temple to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gold that is in the Temple to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 17 You are blind fools! Can’t you see that the Temple is greater than the gold on it? It’s the Temple that makes the gold holy!

18 “And you say, ‘If anyone uses the altar to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gift on the altar to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 19 You are blind! Can’t you see that the altar is greater than any gift on it? It’s the altar that makes the gift holy! 20 Whoever uses the altar to make a promise is really using the altar and everything on the altar. 21 And anyone who uses the Temple to make a promise is really using the Temple and God, who lives in it. 22 Whoever uses heaven to make a promise is using God’s throne and the one who is seated on it.

In effect Christ is giving the pharisees slack enough to make a noose to hang themselves with it before God. Which is the warning to other "Church leaders" who would also make laws that contradict what the written word says. IDK maybe stuff like: praying to mary/saints, immaculate conception, papal infallibility, indulgences ect..

Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8).

Col2 is about Paul refuting the teachings of peter that said all Christians my be converted to Judaism first, and physically circumcised then converted to Christianity. (so much for either peter being the first pope or papal infallibility)


The 'oral traditions' being identified by paul in the text was an attempt at a church leader/Peter interjecting something new to the gospel, (another step to be saved.) then Paul shuts that idea down. (kinda got to read the book for all of that or at least the chapter.)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter”

(2 Thes 2:15) 14 God chose you to have that salvation. He chose you by using the Good News that we told you. You were chosen so that you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, brothers and sisters, stand strong and continue to believe the teachings we gave you when we were there and by letter.

Not seeing it in the english or the sport.

From the greek:
2:15  ἄρα οὖν ἀδελφοί στήκετε καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ λόγου εἴτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν

g3056 λόγος logos =Word. Meaning:
of speech
   a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
   what someone has said

and the the second word:
g199 ἐπιστολή epistolē =epistle. Meaning:
ἐπιστολή epistolḗ, ep-is-tol-ay'; from G1989; a written message:—"epistle," letter.

No where in the text is the word tradition uttered. Paul is communicating to his congregation to only follow what they heard him say and what what he wrote to them. Nothing else.

and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

Again paul says follow my Logos or teachings
Not traditions.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV

·        If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

So that no single base of power can be established.
God knew if he gave us one set of rules we would corrupt it as the Jews did. the hierarchy would become corrupt and power mad, and send this world into a dark age.. Which is exactly what happened until someone pointed out that God wanted the opposite.

In the parable of the talents, Christ explain why we have so many different denominations.

In that we are not all given the same 'talent' understanding of Him and how the Kingdom works. It is from our multifaceted POV's that we must cobble together the absolute best way for us given what we have been given/understand about Him. As that is our Greatest command. Love our lord God with all of our heart, Spirit, Mind and Strength. in essence with all of our being. This is the polar opposite to the commands and command structure he gave the Jews (and what the R/C church is trying to recreate).

Now because we are all different yet must conform to this single command our worship must be tailored to fit our different strengths. Where ever there is a disagreement on what is the strongest way to worship God, there is yet another schism so that both can worship with all of their being.

All because God does not create man equaly. To some he gives much and much is expected to others he gives little and little is expected, to all he gave the command to love Him with all that we are. That means our worship must be different if we are to obey this greatest of commands.

Because a weak man can not worship the same way a strong man worship and still worship to the greatest command level.

·        If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

Because the 'church' is not a religious organization, but the body of believers or the body of Christ. It is the individuals that are the foundation of truth because each one of us carries the gospel that will save the world. Not a title to a religious movement.

·        Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians?

The Holy Spirit has this authority. Not a person but God alone. As the bible is the Spirit inspired word.

If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?

Not unless you are acting on behalf of the holy Spirit. Be careful on how you respond lest you flippantly take Him in vain.

Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?

Because the term 'catholic' did not indicate a specific denomination as it does now, but a single collective of separate but unified believers at the time.

      

If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?

because the 'church' hid the original Greek texts away and created the Septuagint which is completely different from the Greek. Luther was a monk who had access to the Greek. Plus there was the fact that the 'church' burned anyone and their family alive at the stake for challenging them. What kept ML from this fate was nailing his treatus to the church door which threw the community into a tail spin that demanded that his challenges be answered rather than just being burned as a heretic (as his reputation of being the most pious of the priest hood in his region proceeded him.)

Wow that was fun, do you have any follow ups?
(way better than talking politics)

[Minimalist]

Aha - Dripshit has arrived.




The gang's all here.

[Drich]

Sorry would have been here sooner but the lynch mob had me busy the last few days

[Drich]

Anything less than a Thirty Years' War is unacceptable.

I can name that tune in 4 notes...

[Drich]

Its like bald men, fighting over an hair brush.

Men never really loose their hair it just grows in places where it did not use to grow.. Still need a brush for that.

[Drich]

Santa Claus or Easter Bunny?

Go!

fuelie with a fire extinguisher, or firefighter

Go!


See not so fun when someone trivializes what you hold dear huh???