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Differences from societal norms
#71
RE: Differences from societal norms
I can't stand fashion. Why can't people just wear clothes that are comfortable?
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#72
RE: Differences from societal norms
(November 17, 2016 at 2:06 am)Little lunch Wrote: I can't stand fashion. Why can't people just wear clothes that are comfortable?

I'm with you there. It's a tribal instinct to fit in, I expect. I have always just done my own thing, in every way, which led to me being bullied all through school for being "different". People find different things threatening. As if I could ever be a threat to anyone, a little sad kid sitting on his own in the corner.
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#73
RE: Differences from societal norms
(November 17, 2016 at 2:03 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: There's a significant divide between an embryo - fetal transitions versus teenager-young adult transitions.

Were your statement to be interpreted seriously, CL, it would be considered disingenuous given that you would normally be expeted to be aware of what Ham meant in his statement.

CL makes a good point because it actually is just the process the living being has been through rather than the development stage that makes the difference in definitions.

A fetus is just an unborn mammal, a baby is a newly born mammal. A baby isn't a fully developed mammal. It's still developing.
All a fetus has to do is pass through a vagina and be born and it becomes a baby. At least according to my understanding of the definitions.


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#74
RE: Differences from societal norms
The abortion debate centers around legal personhood, not whether or not something is a baby.  Even after being born, we still don't grant that designation in full.  You have to wait another 18 magical years, lol.

It goes like this.  

1. A fetus does not have the status of a legal person.  Therefore any discussion of the rights of a fetus is, forgive me...stillborn.  
2. The mother does have the status of a legal person, and so her rights must be considered.
3. -If- there were conflicting rights involved, and there aren't, then we would still have to make a decision as to the compelling interest between parties, as we do, for example, during those 18 magical years after birth.
4. The compelling interest lies with the mother-to-not-be in all but the most far flung edge cases.

The stage of development is only relevant at step 1. When we consider why we do or don;t grant full or partial legal personhood. In the case of the vast majority of abortions, the fetus simply does not possess the characteristics upon which the designation finds it's foundation. In the case of late term abortions, exceedingly rare...the argument is that they might...but even then, and assuming that one concedes some status, it only becomes a question of compelling interest.

Should we, and -can- we force the mother to carry to term? Why, How? We'd have to lock her ass up....wouldn;t want her going out into an alley to find some asshole with a coathangar, now would we?
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#75
RE: Differences from societal norms
If I had the right to kill a human being because of inconvenience and my own utter stupidity, I would feel nauseated at the thought of using it.
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#76
RE: Differences from societal norms
(November 17, 2016 at 6:48 am)paulpablo Wrote:
(November 17, 2016 at 2:03 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: There's a significant divide between an embryo - fetal transitions versus teenager-young adult transitions.

Were your statement to be interpreted seriously, CL, it would be considered disingenuous given that you would normally be expeted to be aware of what Ham meant in his statement.

CL makes a good point because it actually is just the process the living being has been through rather than the development stage that makes the difference in definitions.

A fetus is just an unborn mammal, a baby is a newly born mammal. A baby isn't a fully developed mammal. It's still developing.
All a fetus has to do is pass through a vagina and be born and it becomes a baby. At least according to my understanding of the definitions.

The unborn are very often referred to as "babies" as well. When women miscarry, we say she "lost her baby". When there is movement being felt from inside the womb we say "the baby is kicking." etc etc. May just be a matter of semantics. Personally I don't think it matters what word we use to refer to him/her. It doesn't change the reality.
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#77
RE: Differences from societal norms
(November 17, 2016 at 1:15 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: To be fair, no one is "fully developed" until after puberty. Just at different stages of development until we hit adulthood and start deteriorating from there.

It's a matter of degree. A fetus is still less developed than a baby. And a bunch of cells is as close to undeveloped as you can get.
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#78
RE: Differences from societal norms
I'm definitely not a moral relativist, so I do recognize that some societal values are better and more ethical than others, which is turn makes some cultures better than others. I usually feel disdain when I see cultures that subjugate and brutalize it's people. I don't have sympathy for the argument that it's just their culture and not to criticize it when people suffer at the expense of being tolerant to certain societal norms.
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#79
RE: Differences from societal norms
(November 27, 2016 at 1:00 pm)MJ the Skeptical Wrote: I'm definitely not a moral relativist, so I do recognize that some societal values are better and more ethical than others, which is turn makes some cultures better than others. I usually feel disdain when I see cultures that subjugate and brutalize it's people. I don't have sympathy for the argument that it's just their culture and not to criticize it when people suffer at the expense of being tolerant to certain societal norms.

I read all that in Hitchens' voice because of your avatar haha, sounds very him

I do agree though. I wouldn't pretend any culture is perfect, there's always room for improvement. However, to pretend that all cultures are equal, acceptable and respectable is disingenuous though. Can you imagine if, over the last few hundred years, Europeans had accepted this "it's just our culture" argument? We'd still be burning people alive, going on witch hunts and practicing slavery. The free-thinkers of the enlightenment would have sneered at the idea that "peace" can be achieved by acceptance of oppression, dressed-up as authentic "diversity".
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#80
RE: Differences from societal norms
Some characterizations and descriptives of fetuses would be viewed as heresy by a category of Bible believers.

I don't know if their are any 1st Amendment legal cases covering a 'right' to commit heresy sans schisming from ones stated faith, but such a case would indeed be fascinating, regardless of the outcome.
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