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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 2, 2016 at 7:51 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 7:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 7:30 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Doesn't everything happen according to 'God's' plan?
In the grand scheme, big picture sort of way, yes. But that does not mean that God is hand puppeting every single thing that happens in nature.
So, that means god has a plan, in which he knows that billions of abortions will occur?
In god's plan, what is the outcome for the mothers that choose to have abortions? What happens to the unborn?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 2, 2016 at 8:51 pm
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2016 at 8:54 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 2, 2016 at 7:51 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 7:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In the grand scheme, big picture sort of way, yes. But that does not mean that God is hand puppeting every single thing that happens in nature.
So, that means god has a plan, in which he knows that billions of abortions will occur?
In god's plan, what is the outcome for the mothers that choose to have abortions? What happens to the unborn?
It's impossible to know exactly the mind of God and why certain things happen as they do. But we believe God's plan includes allowing us free will. And yes, of course we believe He knows that many bad things will happen to innocent people as a result of free will. But the theory is that in the end the good that comes from humanity's intelligence and freewill will outweigh the bad that came from it, and everything will be made right. Exactly how, we don't know.
I don't understand your last 2 questions. What is the outcome in terms of what?
(December 2, 2016 at 7:45 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 12:45 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ^This.
The Virgin Mary is whom we believe to basically have been the highest and most "important" (for lack of better word) Saint to ever exist.
So um yeah... the Church does not teach that women are objects. 
Then the Church are teaching the Bible wrong. Because the Bible most certainly does teach that.
The teachings of the Church are expressed in official Church doctrines, such as the Catechism. As for the bible, it just depends on which part you read and/or how you interpret it. But that is why the authority of the Church takes precedence over the bible.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 2, 2016 at 8:55 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 8:51 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 7:51 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So, that means god has a plan, in which he knows that billions of abortions will occur?
In god's plan, what is the outcome for the mothers that choose to have abortions? What happens to the unborn?
It's impossible to know exactly the mind of God and why certain things happen as they do. But we believe God's plan includes allowing us free will. And yes, of course we believe He knows that many bad things will happen to innocent people as a result of free will. But the theory is that in the end the good that comes from humanity's intelligence and freewill will outweigh the bad that came from it, and everything will be made right. Exactly how, we don't know.
I don't understand your last 2 questions. What is the outcome in terms of what?
What happens to them in the 'afterlife'?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 2, 2016 at 9:02 pm
Does a old man, chosen by other fallible old farts, suddenly gain magical understanding of the bible to overthrow it's authority as "solo scripta" despite their whole faith relying on it? I don't really understand why catholics can believe the interpretations despite history repeatedly showing they are not infallible.
The senile old farts have thought themselves as gods like Pope Nicholas I declared that "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man." - Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.
I mean after you have a "heretic" like Pope Honorious, or require reversals like Pope Zosimus reversing he predecessors pronouncements, how do you honestly believe that what the current pope is saying is truth and you won't be damned for following it by some future pope?
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 2, 2016 at 10:32 pm
(December 2, 2016 at 7:45 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Then the Church are teaching the Bible wrong. Because the Bible most certainly does teach that.
You know what catholics are like - too cool for bi-bool... 
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 3, 2016 at 4:01 am
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2016 at 4:25 am by robvalue.)
If god has a plan but doesn't know every detail of what will happen, then either we can divert his plan, or else he's continually adjusting for what we do so as to counteract any choices he doesn't like.
He could have made it so no one ever gets pregnant unless they want to. But he didn't. He's more concerned with stopping us investigating any more than a tiny fraction of his creation by attaching us to a planet and surrounding us with toxic atmosphere.
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 3, 2016 at 5:35 am
(This post was last modified: December 3, 2016 at 5:43 am by Ignorant.)
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 3, 2016 at 6:17 am
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 3, 2016 at 6:24 am
(December 2, 2016 at 12:35 pm)pocaracas Wrote: (December 2, 2016 at 12:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, it does not.
When a Catholic wants to know what the catholic position is on something, we crack open the Catechism. Not the bible. And especially not the OT lol. Contrary to the protestant religions, in Catholicism, the authority of the Church comes first, before the words of the bible which are confusing and can be interpreted in many different ways.
So yes, if you're claiming that Catholicism teaches that women are objects, you'd have to point to official Catholic doctrine that states such.
And that is why you don't argue the Bible with catholics.
The CCC is, unlike the Bible, a well thought out document. It's basically fool proof, even if it starts off with the wrong premise - there is a god.
The cathechism a foolproof document? It's simply a document with a lot of strictures crossed out and followed by "forget we ever said that", usually coming 50 years after every catholic has given up on the stricture as too stone age to live by.
Catholic dogma is a mess to an extreme extent, mainly because one of the few rules they are not willing to drop is "we are never wrong".
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RE: Atheists, tell me, a Roman Catholic: why should I become an atheist?
December 3, 2016 at 6:28 am
(December 3, 2016 at 6:17 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: ....right, I guess similar quotes like Innocent III saying "Indeed, it is not too much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods." also fake. [1]
so why a teaching from a fallible man cannot also be fallible? [2]
1) I doubt this one is fake. You don't have to be a philologist to catch the figurative sense here. The priest has always occupied a position of authority, and has often (sadly) abused that authority. Are you suggesting that Innocent III actually taught that priests are gods?
2) They often are. Everything the Pope says is not infallible. Only very specific things, said in very specific ways, said under very specific circumstances can be considered infallible. To give you a sense of how often: there are less than 10 instances of infallible statements given by Popes. That is like once every 300 years.
For example, the latest encyclical of Pope Francis, Laudato Si, does not contain any such statements.
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