How to convert Christians to atheists in 30 seconds (ironically, using bible)

[Ignorant]

Don't hear too many physicists throwing the term 'corruption' around.

Quite true. The point is that a physicist is just describing what matter "does" under certain conditions.

If matter itself is "renewed" or "remade" (whatever that ultimately means), then it is quite probable that this "renewed" matter does "different" things under those same conditions.

[ApeNotKillApe]

This Yahweh. Not the scientifically literate sort is he.

[Asmodee]

...
6) No one will be dead and no one will die. The reality and the purpose of graveyards will no longer exist.

...

So, Hitler will be alive?  Or do you just mean his body will no longer exist?  Because "dead" and "alive" are two opposing states, all living/once living things being one or the other.  So if "no one will be dead" that means "everyone will be alive".  So where will Hitler be?  Alive and well in Hell?  I hereby copyright that shit!  That's a great title for a reality TV show!  Maybe one set in rural Mississippi...or anywhere in Texas...

[Ignorant]

So, Hitler will be alive?  Or do you just mean his body will no longer exist? [1] Because "dead" and "alive" are two opposing states, all living/once living things being one or the other.  So if "no one will be dead" that means "everyone will be alive". [2] So where will Hitler be?  Alive and well in Hell? [3] I hereby copyright that shit!  That's a great title for a reality TV show!  Maybe one set in rural Mississippi...or anywhere in Texas... [4]

1) Yes, even Hitler will rise on the last day, and spend eternity according to the true meaning of his actions (which were severely lacking in humanity, goodness, truth, etc.). I can't say for sure, but something tells me his eternity will be a lot like what he put millions of people though.

2) Yes, you're getting it. At the end of all things when Jesus returns, everyone who has died will RISE FROM THE DEAD, and spend eternity according to the good they did or did not do in this life.

3) Like I said, I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident that Hitler will be very alive in hell, but I'm not sure about the "well" part. He will spend eternity knowing the truth about how he spent his life as one of the shittiest people ever.

4) I couldn't agree more.

[LastPoet]

2) Yes, you're getting it. At the end of all things when Jesus returns, everyone who has died will RISE FROM THE DEAD, and spend eternity according to the good they did or did not do in this life.

What if I told you, that once I die, hopefully many years from now, i want to remain dead? Even entertaining the notion of forever being conscient makes me cringe. Mortality is what makes life worth living and do one's best.

Could your Jesus spare me of that?

[Ignorant]

If there is agreement on details here and there --but no unified understanding of the person being worshiped-- that can also be a case of people blindly flinging darts at a wall.  You may get clusters of darts here and there, but that just means that people looking in the same direction will naturally come up with a few similar ideas. [1] We're talking about a being who appeared to people in more than one form and performed works of pure magic so that they had no other choice than to know he was real and that he was more than just another person.  Then he is gone and humanity can't figure out who he is anymore. [2]

Does that really seem to be the case?  I've known a lot of religious people in my life, and I can't recall many of them who did not consider truth and goodness to be important.  Most people strike me as being sincere in their religious belief and in their desire to be considered a good person. [3] If few of them are finding the gate that leads to life, it's not out of a lack of desire.  The instructions are not very useful. [4]

I'm fine with these explanations, but they seem to go beyond what the Bible explains. [5] Are there ways to know for certain that god wishes for us to come to our fullness, [6] as opposed to expecting only a few of us to find the path to life? [7] The latter would square with the old testament god who separated out a small tribe and used it to visit judgment on other tribes, only showing mercy to one tribe that offered itself up as servants.  Could this not be an example of what God has in mind for the future, where he sets aside a very small group and accepts them as his nation, then leaves the rest to suffering and destruction? [8]

1) Right. So like I said, a possibility is that everyone has it completely wrong.

2) Why can't they figure this out?

3) I wasn't referring to religious people, I was referring to the whole of humanity.

4) It isn't about the instructions. It's about a particular kind of relationship with a person. In ways similar to every other relationship, mistakes are made and forgiven, you drift away and become close again. The difference is that even while we may feel distant or that the relationship is over, this person is always with you. Jesus is truly the Emmanuel (god with us). He revealed that reality to us. God is just simply close to us out of love and mercy, even while we diminish ourselves through sin. You can't deny that is reality. You can fail to be convinced by it. But it's real, and God is with you your whole life. Living according to that reality, living according to the relationship with God in Christ IS the narrow gate.

5) What I have explained is my own poor presentation of what I've read in the Bible, in Christian history, and in my current relationship with God and his community (the Church). Everything I have been trying to explain comes from the Bible, at least I hope it does.

6) Yes. If god made you human, then he made you with a fundamental desire to be the best version of humanity that your personality can become. Because you want to be good (even if you have a poor understanding of actual goodness) and fulfilled, that is how you know god wants that too. You don't need the Bible for that fundamentally human answer. All you need is your humanity. God made you what-you-are. What-you-are includes the desire to be the best version of what-you-are, as well as the agency to bring that about by your freedom. If god made what-you-are with that desire and that freedom, then that means that he desires that you come to that fullness through the freedom he has given.

7) God's universal will for every human's happiness is seen in what-we-are (i.e. our nature). From the start, we were not successful at bringing about our own fullness freely. He did not abandon us to that failure. The narrow gate IS Jesus, and he gave himself to us freely. You don't have to "find" the narrow gate. The narrow gate will find you.

8) I don't think so. I think the Old Testament stuff is more complex than first glance. The Old Testament is a gradual restoration as preparation for Jesus. After Jesus, God's mercy just overflows. Consider this "vision" of heaven from Revelation (after the famous 144,000 verse):

"After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb." - Romans 7:9-10

Again, you don't have to worry about finding the "right" truth or the narrow gate. Jesus is the truth which finds you.

"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." -Luke 15:1-7

[Tonus]

2) Why can't they figure this out?

It would be one of two things, IMO: he did not leave sufficient evidence after he left, or the multitude of texts and writings are all fictional.

3) I wasn't referring to religious people, I was referring to the whole of humanity.

But most of humanity is still religious, and that percentage was much higher in the past. I would anticipate that very few people would be on the path to destruction if it came down to innate desires and the kind of person we are inside, etc.

4) It isn't about the instructions. It's about a particular kind of relationship with a person.

But it's not anything like the relationships we have with people. It's entirely one-sided, where we do all of the communicating and understanding and we then determine what the other person's responses are and interpret intent and meaning. It is indistinguishable from any other non-interactive agent that we ascribe motive to, such as luck or karma.

6) Yes. If god made you human, then he made you with a fundamental desire to be the best version of humanity that your personality can become.

How can we know this? If the Bible shows us God's opinion of mankind, it is not a very positive one. His perfect creation (Adam, Eve, presumably the spirit that made the serpent talk) turned against him, after which he degraded humanity and we've been falling far short of his standards ever since. The Bible beats us over the head with how lowly and wicked we are, then the God whose "good" and perfect creation is the source of the mess creates a way out for an infection that he bestowed on us as penance for someone else's sin (and someone else's poor design!). How can I imagine that God only wants the best for me when he has treated his own creation so shabbily?

7) God's universal will for every human's happiness is seen in what-we-are (i.e. our nature). From the start, we were not successful at bringing about our own fullness freely. He did not abandon us to that failure. The narrow gate IS Jesus, and he gave himself to us freely. You don't have to "find" the narrow gate. The narrow gate will find you.

But that's not what Jesus says, and it's not a complicated analogy that he drew. He does not say that he is the gate and that we don't have to find it. He speaks of the roads that lead to destruction and life. The concept of "the path we tread" is pretty common and easy to understand. He is saying that many will walk the road to destruction and few will find the road to life. It is clear what he is saying, and it's tough to infer anything hopeful from it.

8) I don't think so. I think the Old Testament stuff is more complex than first glance. The Old Testament is a gradual restoration as preparation for Jesus.

I'm not so sure about that. Jesus turns out to be much milder than the preparation that the Israelites go through in the OT. Maybe it's more complex because it seems so brutal and cruel when taken at face value and a fair amount of mental energy must be expended to make it seem like something less so.

I understand the parables of the lost sheep and the prodigal son, which imply that God is not just merciful but that he fervently desires the best for us. The contradictory messages are one of the things that make it seem man-made to me. The idea that the Bible is a book with deep wisdom that must be read and studied carefully is one thing. The idea that it's a convoluted and confusing set of writings that require extensive interpretation through prayer and divine inspiration wouldn't seem so far-fetched if humanity could come to a consensus on it instead of being so fragmented. People have been convinced by divine revelation to claim that theirs were the 'last days' for many centuries, and to this day we hear of divine revelation which sheds new light and new understanding on the writings. I find it difficult to believe that God is still slowly unwinding the Bible for us today.

[Asmodee]

So, Hitler will be alive?  Or do you just mean his body will no longer exist? [1] Because "dead" and "alive" are two opposing states, all living/once living things being one or the other.  So if "no one will be dead" that means "everyone will be alive". [2] So where will Hitler be?  Alive and well in Hell? [3] I hereby copyright that shit!  That's a great title for a reality TV show!  Maybe one set in rural Mississippi...or anywhere in Texas... [4]

1) Yes, even Hitler will rise on the last day, and spend eternity according to the true meaning of his actions (which were severely lacking in humanity, goodness, truth, etc.). I can't say for sure, but something tells me his eternity will be a lot like what he put millions of people though.

2) Yes, you're getting it. At the end of all things when Jesus returns, everyone who has died will RISE FROM THE DEAD, and spend eternity according to the good they did or did not do in this life.

3) Like I said, I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident that Hitler will be very alive in hell, but I'm not sure about the "well" part. He will spend eternity knowing the truth about how he spent his life as one of the shittiest people ever.

4) I couldn't agree more.

So there are different levels of Heaven and Hell, then?  It's not just black and white, good and bad?  Not being whatever strange religion you are I don't want to think that I'll spend eternity with Hitler.  I'm not THAT big a dick!  Nor do I want to imagine that the current pope is going to have to spend eternity with the last guy, who I'm fairly certain eats the souls of children.  But still, being pope has to be a free pass into Heaven, but there's no way "Pope Dickead" should have a house right next to "Pope Really Ok Guy" in Heaven.