Do you believe in free will?

[KichigaiNeko]

Short answer is NO ....O don't need to "believe in anything"

[picto90]

Personally I do not believe in free will. I believe we make decisions, but that's not the same as free will. The decision you just made to post on this forum did not come from you, it came from everything that happened to you up to the point where you decided to post on this forum. Yes we make decisions, but it was a process that lead us to those decisions.

To put it another way, you make a decision, for example, to bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. YOU decided to do that, that was YOUR choice. Imagine now that you travelled back in time to just before you baked the cake, and you memory reset to that point in time. What would happen? Well, I'm willing to bet you would bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. What if you did it again? Travelled back in time and reset your memory. Once again, I'm willing to bet you would bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. You could repeat this forever. It wasn't "free will" that made you bake the cake, it was your knowledge or love of baking, your boredom or you desire for cake not free will.

[leo-rcc]

The hell? That came up under "Today's Posts". Fuckin evil afoot.

Doesn't matter, I'd rather have a old thread dug up with a good post than an new one bumped with "Yes, I agree".

I still struggle with this concept of free will, as to what it is exactly what people mean by that. I think people have very different ideas as to what free will actually means.

[Godscreated]

Personally I do not believe in free will. I believe we make decisions, but that's not the same as free will. The decision you just made to post on this forum did not come from you, it came from everything that happened to you up to the point where you decided to post on this forum. Yes we make decisions, but it was a process that lead us to those decisions.

To put it another way, you make a decision, for example, to bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. YOU decided to do that, that was YOUR choice. Imagine now that you travelled back in time to just before you baked the cake, and you memory reset to that point in time. What would happen? Well, I'm willing to bet you would bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. What if you did it again? Travelled back in time and reset your memory. Once again, I'm willing to bet you would bake a cake, eat only one slice, and put the rest in the fridge. You could repeat this forever. It wasn't "free will" that made you bake the cake, it was your knowledge or love of baking, your boredom or you desire for cake not free will.

That circumstance has nothing to do with freewill, that is, as far as life changing decisions go, I think that's what this is about.
A soldier who jumps on an explosive device to save his friends would be an act of freewill, I can not imagine any circumstances that would lead one to sacrifice his life (which by the way goes against self preservation which is the strongest instinct man has) except for freewill, to choose to do what is noble and right.

[The Grand Nudger]

We also have a strong instinct to protect each other, stronger as familiarity increases. A soldier jumping on a grenade is protecting people he feels very familiar with, I assure you. We aren't solitary creatures GC. I know this is a great movie moment, and they award medals for it, but just how often do you think it happens? It's not entirely an issue of "free will" either. We're trained to do it, conditioned to do it, shamed, in advance, if we don't do it...and still, mostly, we don't.

[Angrboda]

@GC

It's what's known as a kinship selection effect. Our ancestors evolved certain self-sacrificing behaviors because the bulk of times, if you sacrificed yourself to save others, that would be the end of the propagation of your genes, but because those who are closely related to us share most of the same genetic material, we are effectively insuring the continuation of our genetic line by proxy. There is a weighting involved here of course, as J.B.S. Haldane wryly observed when he was asked if he would sacrifice himself to save a brother; he responded, "No, but I would for two brothers or eight cousins." I forget who said it, but the popular slogan is quite eminently true: "Evolution is smarter than you." There are still mysteries and vistas to be explored in the science of evolutionary biology, but it is astounding the breadth of phenomena which it can envelope.

[picto90]

That circumstance has nothing to do with freewill, that is, as far as life changing decisions go, I think that's what this is about.
A soldier who jumps on an explosive device to save his friends would be an act of freewill, I can not imagine any circumstances that would lead one to sacrifice his life (which by the way goes against self preservation which is the strongest instinct man has) except for freewill, to choose to do what is noble and right.

That was merely an example. In my opinion, and it really is just my opinion, the same rule applies even to life changing decisions. A decision was made, but that decision was dependent on what had happened to you prior to making that decision and has nothing to do with free will.

Even from a Christian perspective free will cannot exist. In order for God to be God, he must me all knowing, if God is all knowing then he is aware of every decision you are going to make in your life time, if he knows what you are going to do, before you do it, before you were even born, then how is that free will? We are just travelling the path that God knew we were going to take all along.

[The Grand Nudger]

Don't even try to explain the difficulties in cobbling together precognition and "choice", you'll get an appeal to illusion, your head might explode watching a christian appeal to illusion as grounds for damnation. They like their trickster gods, they don't feel slighted in the least..lol. It's not that they can't understand the issue, they simply refuse to acknowledge it.

[Godscreated]

That circumstance has nothing to do with freewill, that is, as far as life changing decisions go, I think that's what this is about.
A soldier who jumps on an explosive device to save his friends would be an act of freewill, I can not imagine any circumstances that would lead one to sacrifice his life (which by the way goes against self preservation which is the strongest instinct man has) except for freewill, to choose to do what is noble and right.

That was merely an example. In my opinion, and it really is just my opinion, the same rule applies even to life changing decisions. A decision was made, but that decision was dependent on what had happened to you prior to making that decision and has nothing to do with free will.

Even from a Christian perspective free will cannot exist. In order for God to be God, he must me all knowing, if God is all knowing then he is aware of every decision you are going to make in your life time, if he knows what you are going to do, before you do it, before you were even born, then how is that free will? We are just travelling the path that God knew we were going to take all along.

God knowing what we will do has nothing to do with Him controlling what we do. A man knows that to commit murder means time in jail at the least, so he thinks about it, do I commit the crime or do I go on and live my life, either way it's his decision by his freewill.
As for the freewill God gives mankind, you have a choice to believe in Him or not, the rest of your life is in God's hands.

---

@GC

It's what's known as a kinship selection effect. Our ancestors evolved certain self-sacrificing behaviors because the bulk of times, if you sacrificed yourself to save others, that would be the end of the propagation of your genes, but because those who are closely related to us share most of the same genetic material, we are effectively insuring the continuation of our genetic line by proxy. There is a weighting involved here of course, as J.B.S. Haldane wryly observed when he was asked if he would sacrifice himself to save a brother; he responded, "No, but I would for two brothers or eight cousins." I forget who said it, but the popular slogan is quite eminently true: "Evolution is smarter than you." There are still mysteries and vistas to be explored in the science of evolutionary biology, but it is astounding the breadth of phenomena which it can envelope.

Since I do not believe in evolution I can not agree with your statement. As far as I can see from recorded history man has remained the same, no real changes in his thought process. When a man gives his life for one or many ( and it occurs daily), example... person runs into a burning building to save another's life and dies trying, that decision has nothing to do with genes, it is a selfless act of love that many do not possess, yet it is a decision made of one's own freewill.

[Welsh cake]

God knowing what we will do has nothing to do with Him controlling what we do.

Yes it does. Do you not understand that your concept of God with its attributes of omniscience is basically synonymous with the doctrine of predestination? According to your own theology you have no choice but to believe everything you do or don't do was already decided for you, including this conservation you're having right now.

A man knows that to commit murder means time in jail at the least,

No, he must first be charged with suspicion of murder, then arrested and held in custody, a detention centre, until a trial. If enough evidence is brought against him and he is found guilty of murder in the court of law, he'll then face a prison sentence.

As for the freewill God gives mankind, you have a choice to believe in Him or not, the rest of your life is in God's hands.

Not if predestination is in effect. If God is real and he rewards or punishes based on our actions in this life, then he has already decided before creating reality who he's going to screw over and those he'll make subjects of his 'mercy' i.e. the witnesses who get to watch him screw over the majority of the human race.