The fine tuning argument

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

A naturalistic explanation would ultimately lead to something which doesn't require anymore explanation because that is the source of explanation for everything else. That's why God doesn't have to be so complex. He could be so simple that it's beyond our grasp to understand His true nature. The simplest thing could also be the greatest and the most mysterious thing you can ever imagine (or can't imagine).

Of course, the muslim ideology allows for god to explain everything without being an explaination himself. How very convenient.

We can't understand the mind of God. Maybe it can exist all by itself without needing a brain like we do.

And that, among other reasons, is a good reason for god to be unnecessary as an explaination for anything - as god is not such an explaination for anything. The entire concept has no predictive or empirical value to actually prove anything.

It's more than just feelings.
It's a combination of faith + reason + intuition - the evidence only.

That's nice, but only with evidence can you actually prove anything.

I don't know the answer to that, but it's possible that He gave the universe some kind of a self-organizational intelligence to ultimately sort out everything by itself to finally bring out the result which He had planned for. Yet again, maybe He could've done it the first time if He wanted to.

So... he created the universe but didn't necessarily need to have anything else to do with it and all the evidence in the universe can't get to the point of actually proving a creator. Even if such a being exists, then why bother with it anyway? Particularly when the naturalistic laws can bring about the same explailnation without the necessity of extra and unnecessary complexities, such as a supernatural and omnipotent intelligence.

[Welsh cake]

[downbeatplumb]

So the basic problem is why are the laws the way they are.

I googled fine tuning it and the answers I recieved were the usual multiverse with random fluctuations etc.

Could it be that the laws HAVE to be this way for some reason? and that the possible fluctuations are incompatable with how reality works.

What I'm asking is what non-deistic mechanism can set the laws of nature?

[solja247]

There is no evidence of any design as such that couldn't be explained with empirical evidence for a naturalistic explaination.

Where is this evidence that explains away the need of a Designer?

That is an excellent question. It's still a very open question for physicists and astronomers around the world.
The religious answer, however, I can guarentee, is as good as any that I can make up right now.

What created the aliens?

Good. Now at least you admit that much. Now can we go further and admit that at the same time as we don't know "anything" about our universe we couldn't possibly know anything about something even more complex that shows no signs of even existing? eg god.

Such as Multiverses?

Note: Just because you cant understand, doesnt mean it exists...

[Shinylight]

That is an excellent question. It's still a very open question for physicists and astronomers around the world.
The religious answer, however, I can guarentee, is as good as any that I can make up right now.

What created the aliens?

What created God?

[solja247]

What created God?

Nothing, God is the uncaused cause. If there is no uncaused cause we can continue going around in circles, and going no where...

[Shinylight]

Why can't the universe be uncaused?

[solja247]

Why can't the universe be uncaused?

Everything has a cause, we can try and say it doesnt but untill we have something which doesnt need a cause (other than God) Everything does have a cause, its not a theory, its a fact.

[Shinylight]

So what makes God exempt from this rule?

You can't make up shit about your god just because someone shoots a hole in your argument.

[solja247]

So what makes God exempt from this rule?

Perhaps He isnt.
Something created God, something created God's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator...

You see how we dont get anywhere?

Either something created God and that God was created by another God and that God was created by another God OR there was an uncaused cause, which is God...