The fine tuning argument

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

A naturalistic explanation would ultimately lead to something which doesn't require anymore explanation because that is the source of explanation for everything else. That's why God doesn't have to be so complex. He could be so simple that it's beyond our grasp to understand His true nature. The simplest thing could also be the greatest and the most mysterious thing you can ever imagine (or can't imagine).

Of course, the muslim ideology allows for god to explain everything without being an explaination himself. How very convenient.

We can't understand the mind of God. Maybe it can exist all by itself without needing a brain like we do.

And that, among other reasons, is a good reason for god to be unnecessary as an explaination for anything - as god is not such an explaination for anything. The entire concept has no predictive or empirical value to actually prove anything.

It's more than just feelings.
It's a combination of faith + reason + intuition - the evidence only.

That's nice, but only with evidence can you actually prove anything.

I don't know the answer to that, but it's possible that He gave the universe some kind of a self-organizational intelligence to ultimately sort out everything by itself to finally bring out the result which He had planned for. Yet again, maybe He could've done it the first time if He wanted to.

So... he created the universe but didn't necessarily need to have anything else to do with it and all the evidence in the universe can't get to the point of actually proving a creator. Even if such a being exists, then why bother with it anyway? Particularly when the naturalistic laws can bring about the same explailnation without the necessity of extra and unnecessary complexities, such as a supernatural and omnipotent intelligence.

[Welsh cake]

That's why God doesn't have to be so complex. He could be so simple that it's beyond our grasp to understand His true nature. The simplest thing could also be the greatest and the most mysterious thing you can ever imagine (or can't imagine).

Simple entities are normally the easiest to explain, by corollary, complex entities are usually more difficult to explain.

We can't understand the mind of God. Maybe it can exist all by itself without needing a brain like we do.

Its worth pointing out your blatant logical contradiction that we can't understand the mind of God, yet assert you can comprehend how complex it is. I can't understand everything about quantum mechanics, doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who can.

It's more than just feelings.
It's a combination of faith + reason + intuition - the evidence only.

How you feel about reality has no bearing on what is actually demonstrable. For instance, regardless of how you feel about car crashes it doesn't change the fact there were over 6 million road accidents in the United States alone back in 2005, nor does it make them any less real.

http://www.car-accidents.com/

You need empirical evidence for god to silence your critics, not blind faith.

Not just a mind, but God is a law itself for the entire universe, a law for all the other laws of nature.

Then by all means, demonstrate how this entity/force governs the physical laws of the universe. Explain to us how it controls the laws of thermodynamics for example.

I don't know the answer to that, but it's possible that He gave the universe some kind of a self-organizational intelligence to ultimately sort out everything by itself to finally bring out the result which He had planned for. Yet again, maybe He could've done it the first time if He wanted to.

If you don't know the answer, that's fine, that would've been intellectually honest of you to leave it at that, but instead you rant on. So not only do you claim there's an infinite cosmic creator, but now you presuppose it also made the universe sentient? Why stop there? Why not further your groundless evidence-free claims by arguing that every atom in our body is self-aware and ensures we survive after biological death?

It's only that the universe if innefficient in certain ways. I don't know why He made it like that. However, God reveals His perfection in the universe by bringing order out of chaos. You'll notice that fine tuning has happened through different levels

You're speaking in present tense: When did it do that exactly? You can't coherently state the current universe is "inefficient" and then go on to say its all still "fine-tuned" anyway.

[downbeatplumb]

So the basic problem is why are the laws the way they are.

I googled fine tuning it and the answers I recieved were the usual multiverse with random fluctuations etc.

Could it be that the laws HAVE to be this way for some reason? and that the possible fluctuations are incompatable with how reality works.

What I'm asking is what non-deistic mechanism can set the laws of nature?

[solja247]

There is no evidence of any design as such that couldn't be explained with empirical evidence for a naturalistic explaination.

Where is this evidence that explains away the need of a Designer?

That is an excellent question. It's still a very open question for physicists and astronomers around the world.
The religious answer, however, I can guarentee, is as good as any that I can make up right now.

What created the aliens?

Good. Now at least you admit that much. Now can we go further and admit that at the same time as we don't know "anything" about our universe we couldn't possibly know anything about something even more complex that shows no signs of even existing? eg god.

Such as Multiverses?

Note: Just because you cant understand, doesnt mean it exists...

[Shinylight]

That is an excellent question. It's still a very open question for physicists and astronomers around the world.
The religious answer, however, I can guarentee, is as good as any that I can make up right now.

What created the aliens?

What created God?

[solja247]

What created God?

Nothing, God is the uncaused cause. If there is no uncaused cause we can continue going around in circles, and going no where...

[Shinylight]

Why can't the universe be uncaused?

[solja247]

Why can't the universe be uncaused?

Everything has a cause, we can try and say it doesnt but untill we have something which doesnt need a cause (other than God) Everything does have a cause, its not a theory, its a fact.

[Shinylight]

So what makes God exempt from this rule?

You can't make up shit about your god just because someone shoots a hole in your argument.

[solja247]

So what makes God exempt from this rule?

Perhaps He isnt.
Something created God, something created God's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator, something created creator's creator...

You see how we dont get anywhere?

Either something created God and that God was created by another God and that God was created by another God OR there was an uncaused cause, which is God...