What is logic?

[Little Rik]

There are people who have had experiences they identify as an NDE, despite the fact that they never were "dead" in whatever terms you consider dead.  You have implied that there is a difference between what those people experience and a "real NDE" experience.  How do you know there is a difference in the clarity, vividness or sharpness of their experiences, between their NDE-like experiences and the "real NDE" of someone who died?

As far as I am concern if someone that is not dead say that they had a clear, sharp and vivid experience
I don't buy it because if the consciousness is still in the brain you can not have anything like that.
The consciousness must be free from the bondage of the brain in order to have a clear, sharp and vivid experience.  

(emphasis mine)

You keep making this claim, yet I have not seen any evidence for it.  You don't explain how you know this is the case other than saying that you "don't buy it."  This pretty much tells me that your claim is pure bullshit.  An assertion that you pulled from your ass.  You want to make a substantive difference between NDEs and people who have NDE-like experiences, but this difference only occurs in your "theories" about consciousness leaving the body during death.  Your theories are nothing but guesses that are propped up by your religious dogma.  You have no evidence that there is any qualitative difference between these "NDE-like experiences" and the NDE experiences of those who died and were resuscitated.  Moreover, even your own "claimed" evidence of veridical NDEs is against you in the case of Pam Reynolds.  (And then there's your ridiculous assertion that Howard Storm was 'really' dead, even though there's no evidence that he ever was.  No evidence is pretty much standard operating procedure for you.)  As noted in the quote about the IANDS study above, "The 37 percenters [who had NDE-like experiences] claimed to have experiences every bit as real, involved, and life-changing as those that happened to people during death or close-brush-with-death crises; and their reports duplicate or parallel the same spread of scenario types and a pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects."  You may not "buy it," but you not accepting that they are the same thing is based on nothing but your commitment to a specific set of religiously based assumptions.  The evidence indicates that the NDE-like experiencers have the same vivid, clear and sharp experiences that your supposed "real NDE" experiencers have.  In other words, even according to your own term of a "malfunctioning" brain, the evidence is against you; NDE-like experiences, G-LOC, ketamine, anoxia and 'real NDEs' -- all produce clear, vivid, and sharp experiences. So your claim that a "malfunction in the brain" cannot produce such experiences is a total fail.

Tell me something Yog.  

How many people who had a G-LOC, ketamine or anoxia after their experiences become strong believers
and engage in spirituality?  

And how many people that had an NDE after they died still keep their old beliefs?  




[img]ak0.pinimg.com/originals/16/0b/39/160b393cea31ec2d5b5b233096d8d600.jpg[/img]

[Angrboda]

(emphasis mine)

You keep making this claim, yet I have not seen any evidence for it.  You don't explain how you know this is the case other than saying that you "don't buy it."  This pretty much tells me that your claim is pure bullshit.  An assertion that you pulled from your ass.  You want to make a substantive difference between NDEs and people who have NDE-like experiences, but this difference only occurs in your "theories" about consciousness leaving the body during death.  Your theories are nothing but guesses that are propped up by your religious dogma.  You have no evidence that there is any qualitative difference between these "NDE-like experiences" and the NDE experiences of those who died and were resuscitated.  Moreover, even your own "claimed" evidence of veridical NDEs is against you in the case of Pam Reynolds.  (And then there's your ridiculous assertion that Howard Storm was 'really' dead, even though there's no evidence that he ever was.  No evidence is pretty much standard operating procedure for you.)  As noted in the quote about the IANDS study above, "The 37 percenters [who had NDE-like experiences] claimed to have experiences every bit as real, involved, and life-changing as those that happened to people during death or close-brush-with-death crises; and their reports duplicate or parallel the same spread of scenario types and a pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects."  You may not "buy it," but you not accepting that they are the same thing is based on nothing but your commitment to a specific set of religiously based assumptions.  The evidence indicates that the NDE-like experiencers have the same vivid, clear and sharp experiences that your supposed "real NDE" experiencers have.  In other words, even according to your own term of a "malfunctioning" brain, the evidence is against you; NDE-like experiences, G-LOC, ketamine, anoxia and 'real NDEs' -- all produce clear, vivid, and sharp experiences. So your claim that a "malfunction in the brain" cannot produce such experiences is a total fail.

Tell me something Yog.  

How many people who had a G-LOC, ketamine or anoxia after their experiences become strong believers
and engage in spirituality?  

And how many people that had an NDE after they died still keep their old beliefs?  

First, the point of the conversation was not that G-LOC or ketamine duplicate the features of an NDE, but that NDEs that don't involve death are the same experience as NDEs that do involve death and resuscitation.  Your insistence that an NDE must involve death is based upon nothing but your metaphysical theories about NDEs generally, and represents a usage of the term that runs counter to standard usage of the term NDE throughout the near death research community.  But we've encountered this before.  You think the answer to a technical difficulty is just to redefine the words.  That's nothing but anti-social and obnoxious.  Regardless, as usual when you're losing a point in a discussion, the first thing you do is change the subject.  Well I guess if you want to change the subject because you're losing, then we'll change the subject.

Second, we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience.  In the case of the ketamine user whose partner died in a fire, had an NDE, and then later turned to ketamine, this person found the recreation of the near death experience by the drug ketamine to be very "therapeutic" -- therapy being the changing of life attitudes and behaviors.  In his words, "I was put onto various things like Prozac, but I was finding that my own "extra treatment" (the ketamine) was doing me a lot more good because "K" is very cathartic. I was doing it because it made me feel better, except the first time when it was quite a shock. It made me feel a lot less unhappy knowing that she was still there in one way or another. It would have taken a lot longer for me to recover if I hadn't taken "K" because it gets rid of a lot of hurt instantly ... It's very reassuring in a way."  So the claim that ketamine induced experiences can't be cathartic just like the naturalistic event of an NDE is false.

Third, what is your point in asking this question?  If it is that because the two experiences have different after-effects that they thus have nothing in common internally, then that's just fucking stupid.  People reason about events in their life based upon the explanation they attach to the event.  Naturally, an event tied to the explanation "drug induced high" is going to be reasoned about differently than one to which you attach the explanation "experience of the afterlife."  That's just common sense.  That the two events have different psychological after-effects has as much to do with the difference in explanation they attach to the experience as it does any actual differences in the experiences.  Moreover, the point is not that a drug experience is exactly like an NDE, but rather that certain features of NDEs which are puzzling, such as their clarity and vividness, have naturalistic explanations.  If a chemical in the brain can cause NDE like symptoms, then it's reasonable to infer that the symptoms experienced during an NDE might have a basis in brain chemistry.  That the two have different after-effects and therefore are internally different is just dense.

That you think the difference between people's reaction to ketamine and their reaction to an NDE should be a "wake up call" to me is laughable.  It just shows the poverty of your reasoning about such experiences.  Paul of Tarsus had a vision on the road to Damascus and converted to Christianity.  It would be ludicrous to expect that everyone who has a drug trip on the road to Damascus is going to come to Christ, but that seems to be what you're implying.  The fact that Paul had his conversion, and the hippie did not, does not defuse the point that their respective experiences were likely natural events occurring in the brain.  And so it is with ketamine and NDEs; the commonality in the symptoms points toward something in common physically, that the two are a result of brain chemistry.  To draw any other conclusion about the "Pauline" conversions of near death experiencers is simply to be confused about the differences in context and the resultant psychology that this entails.  To imply that it shows a fundamental difference in the quality of the experiences is pure bollocks.  That simply does not follow.

[Crossless2.0]

In a weird way, that picture perfectly sums up this entire thread, if Jormungandr is the beaver and Rik the cock.

[Rhondazvous]

To paraphrase Mark Twain: the difference between death and near death is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.

[Brian37]

To paraphrase Mark Twain: the difference between death and near death is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.

Yep, you are either dead completely beyond any window, or you had just enough left to come back.

Just like you are either pregnant or not pregnant, there is no "half pregnant" or "near pregnant". The sperm makes it to the egg or it doesn't "almost" doesn't count. 

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

[Little Rik]

Tell me something Yog.  

How many people who had a G-LOC, ketamine or anoxia after their experiences become strong believers
and engage in spirituality?  

And how many people that had an NDE after they died still keep their old beliefs?  

First, the point of the conversation was not that G-LOC or ketamine duplicate the features of an NDE, but that NDEs that don't involve death are the same experience as NDEs that do involve death and resuscitation.  Your insistence that an NDE must involve death is based upon nothing but your metaphysical theories about NDEs generally, and represents a usage of the term that runs counter to standard usage of the term NDE throughout the near death research community.  But we've encountered this before.  You think the answer to a technical difficulty is just to redefine the words.  That's nothing but anti-social and obnoxious.  Regardless, as usual when you're losing a point in a discussion, the first thing you do is change the subject.  Well I guess if you want to change the subject because you're losing, then we'll change the subject.

Second, we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience.  In the case of the ketamine user whose partner died in a fire, had an NDE, and then later turned to ketamine, this person found the recreation of the near death experience by the drug ketamine to be very "therapeutic" -- therapy being the changing of life attitudes and behaviors.  In his words, "I was put onto various things like Prozac, but I was finding that my own "extra treatment" (the ketamine) was doing me a lot more good because "K" is very cathartic. I was doing it because it made me feel better, except the first time when it was quite a shock. It made me feel a lot less unhappy knowing that she was still there in one way or another. It would have taken a lot longer for me to recover if I hadn't taken "K" because it gets rid of a lot of hurt instantly ... It's very reassuring in a way."  So the claim that ketamine induced experiences can't be cathartic just like the naturalistic event of an NDE is false.

Third, what is your point in asking this question?  If it is that because the two experiences have different after-effects that they thus have nothing in common internally, then that's just fucking stupid.  People reason about events in their life based upon the explanation they attach to the event.  Naturally, an event tied to the explanation "drug induced high" is going to be reasoned about differently than one to which you attach the explanation "experience of the afterlife."  That's just common sense.  That the two events have different psychological after-effects has as much to do with the difference in explanation they attach to the experience as it does any actual differences in the experiences.  Moreover, the point is not that a drug experience is exactly like an NDE, but rather that certain features of NDEs which are puzzling, such as their clarity and vividness, have naturalistic explanations.  If a chemical in the brain can cause NDE like symptoms, then it's reasonable to infer that the symptoms experienced during an NDE might have a basis in brain chemistry.  That the two have different after-effects and therefore are internally different is just dense.

That you think the difference between people's reaction to ketamine and their reaction to an NDE should be a "wake up call" to me is laughable.  It just shows the poverty of your reasoning about such experiences.  Paul of Tarsus had a vision on the road to Damascus and converted to Christianity.  It would be ludicrous to expect that everyone who has a drug trip on the road to Damascus is going to come to Christ, but that seems to be what you're implying.  The fact that Paul had his conversion, and the hippie did not, does not defuse the point that their respective experiences were likely natural events occurring in the brain.  And so it is with ketamine and NDEs; the commonality in the symptoms points toward something in common physically, that the two are a result of brain chemistry.  To draw any other conclusion about the "Pauline" conversions of near death experiencers is simply to be confused about the differences in context and the resultant psychology that this entails.  To imply that it shows a fundamental difference in the quality of the experiences is pure bollocks.  That simply does not follow.

Fool.  

You can't have an NDE that doesn't involve death.
And here I mean an NDE that follow a mystical experience and an experience in which God teach you
the correct path to follow.
You are too thick and obtuse to understand how these things works Yog.
By using a chemical tool you may well experience something mystical but it is all limited to the strength of the drug that you use and to the strength of your brain that is forced to put up with this unnatural way.

Drugs, ketamine G-LOC force the pineal gland to release chemicals which in turn affect the consciousness
to open up and experience something mystical.

And here we have the difference.
Forcing the consciousness to open up in an unnatural way is like a mental masturbation while in an NDE
you experience the real thing in a natural way.
Because the natural way involve a consciousness that is 100% alert you remember such an experience
all your life.
The mental masturbation on the other hand is forgotten in no time and you learn absolutely nothing.

But let me see your point......you say.............we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience...........

Sure Yog.
When you pop up down under go to visit Nimbin and see how the drugs have changed people lives.
30-40 years ago this place was like the San Francisco of America where young people wanted to experiment with light drugs.
Now these people are like zombies on heavy drugs.
The mystical way is all gone.
They ruin their bodies, their brains and force the consciousness in the total darkness.

Here a comment......... Fuck, last time I went to Nimbin I couldn't even get out of my car for junkies coming up to me asking if I want some weed.

I went to the pub once and when I came back to my car there was some old junkie leaning on my car shooting up in broad daylight.

http://www.skateboard.com.au/article/15-...010-nimbi/

[Angrboda]

First, the point of the conversation was not that G-LOC or ketamine duplicate the features of an NDE, but that NDEs that don't involve death are the same experience as NDEs that do involve death and resuscitation.  Your insistence that an NDE must involve death is based upon nothing but your metaphysical theories about NDEs generally, and represents a usage of the term that runs counter to standard usage of the term NDE throughout the near death research community.  But we've encountered this before.  You think the answer to a technical difficulty is just to redefine the words.  That's nothing but anti-social and obnoxious.  Regardless, as usual when you're losing a point in a discussion, the first thing you do is change the subject.  Well I guess if you want to change the subject because you're losing, then we'll change the subject.

Second, we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience.  In the case of the ketamine user whose partner died in a fire, had an NDE, and then later turned to ketamine, this person found the recreation of the near death experience by the drug ketamine to be very "therapeutic" -- therapy being the changing of life attitudes and behaviors.  In his words, "I was put onto various things like Prozac, but I was finding that my own "extra treatment" (the ketamine) was doing me a lot more good because "K" is very cathartic. I was doing it because it made me feel better, except the first time when it was quite a shock. It made me feel a lot less unhappy knowing that she was still there in one way or another. It would have taken a lot longer for me to recover if I hadn't taken "K" because it gets rid of a lot of hurt instantly ... It's very reassuring in a way."  So the claim that ketamine induced experiences can't be cathartic just like the naturalistic event of an NDE is false.

Third, what is your point in asking this question?  If it is that because the two experiences have different after-effects that they thus have nothing in common internally, then that's just fucking stupid.  People reason about events in their life based upon the explanation they attach to the event.  Naturally, an event tied to the explanation "drug induced high" is going to be reasoned about differently than one to which you attach the explanation "experience of the afterlife."  That's just common sense.  That the two events have different psychological after-effects has as much to do with the difference in explanation they attach to the experience as it does any actual differences in the experiences.  Moreover, the point is not that a drug experience is exactly like an NDE, but rather that certain features of NDEs which are puzzling, such as their clarity and vividness, have naturalistic explanations.  If a chemical in the brain can cause NDE like symptoms, then it's reasonable to infer that the symptoms experienced during an NDE might have a basis in brain chemistry.  That the two have different after-effects and therefore are internally different is just dense.

That you think the difference between people's reaction to ketamine and their reaction to an NDE should be a "wake up call" to me is laughable.  It just shows the poverty of your reasoning about such experiences.  Paul of Tarsus had a vision on the road to Damascus and converted to Christianity.  It would be ludicrous to expect that everyone who has a drug trip on the road to Damascus is going to come to Christ, but that seems to be what you're implying.  The fact that Paul had his conversion, and the hippie did not, does not defuse the point that their respective experiences were likely natural events occurring in the brain.  And so it is with ketamine and NDEs; the commonality in the symptoms points toward something in common physically, that the two are a result of brain chemistry.  To draw any other conclusion about the "Pauline" conversions of near death experiencers is simply to be confused about the differences in context and the resultant psychology that this entails.  To imply that it shows a fundamental difference in the quality of the experiences is pure bollocks.  That simply does not follow.

Fool.  

You can't have an NDE that doesn't involve death.
And here I mean an NDE that follow a mystical experience and an experience in which God teach you
the correct path to follow.
You are too thick and obtuse to understand how these things works Yog.
By using a chemical tool you may well experience something mystical but it is all limited to the strength of the drug that you use and to the strength of your brain that is forced to put up with this unnatural way.

Drugs, ketamine G-LOC force the pineal gland to release chemicals which in turn affect the consciousness
to open up and experience something mystical.

And here we have the difference.
Forcing the consciousness to open up in an unnatural way is like a mental masturbation while in an NDE
you experience the real thing in a natural way.
Because the natural way involve a consciousness that is 100% alert you remember such an experience
all your life.
The mental masturbation on the other hand is forgotten in no time and you learn absolutely nothing.

Lots of assertions. Not a drop of evidence. Blow it out your ass. You don't know shit about how NDEs affect the brain, how drugs influence the pineal gland, or much of anything. You're just dribbling out your mouth a bunch of inanities without so much as a shred of evidence. You've already been given an example of where the "mental masturbation" was not forgotten and resulted in changes that will last a lifetime, but don't let actual evidence stop you from making your bullshit assertions. Your thinking on this is the only mental masturbation. You've just been shown the exact opposite and yet you continue asserting the same thing. You're just an ideological shill for your religious dogma about NDEs. You don't think at all. You just assert, regardless of what the evidence shows.

But let me see your point......you say.............we already have witnessed people having life changing experiences based upon the drug experience...........

Sure Yog.
When you pop up down under go to visit Nimbin and see how the drugs have changed people lives.
30-40 years ago this place was like the San Francisco of America where young people wanted to experiment with light drugs.
Now these people are like zombies on heavy drugs.
The mystical way is all gone.
They ruin their bodies, their brains and force the consciousness in the total darkness.

Here a comment......... Fuck, last time I went to Nimbin I couldn't even get out of my car for junkies coming up to me asking if I want some weed.

I went to the pub once and when I came back to my car there was some old junkie leaning on my car shooting up in broad daylight.

http://www.skateboard.com.au/article/15-...010-nimbi/

What's your point here? That illicit drug use is dangerous. Of course it is. What that has to do with whether or not ketamine can have transformative effects in the individual user, or that it can produce clear, vivid, and sharp experiences, who the fuck knows? It's just you, gone off on another tangent that has nothing to do with the original point. Congratulations on not making any point, Mr. Detective. It's just more of your sloppy thinking.

[Angrboda]

Do you want to hear a personal story of drug use? I have a mental illness known as schizoaffective disorder. It's basically a cross between manic-depression and schizophrenia. Part of the illness for me was persistent delusions. These included believing that I was from a different universe, and that I needed to kill myself. I made several attempts upon my life under the influence of these delusions. In 2008, I took a bottle of sleeping pills and walked out into 20 degree below zero weather to lie down in a snowbank to die. I was found by some Samaritan and rushed to the hospital. I was saved, but not before losing 9 of my 10 fingers to frostbite. In spite of that, my delusions still persistently told me that I needed to kill myself. A few years ago, my doctor started me on anti-psychotic drugs which alter my brain chemistry. I am no longer plagued by the delusion that I need to kill myself. Thanks to "drugs" I am now able to live a life free of that bugbear. So your story about drug users in Nimbin is balanced by the millions of people living longer better lives due to heart medication, anti-depressants, cholesterol drugs, insulin, and other chemical interventions. The point is that contrary to your religious chant that drugs are "mental masturbation" is the raw fact that controlled drug use has many benefits. What the fuck this all has to do with your implied point that ketamine users don't have life transforming influences under the drug, and it's obvious falsehood, is anybody's guess. As usual, you're just blindly ranting based on a keyword or sentence picked out from a paragraph that had a larger point. As usual, you have no valid point.

[Angrboda]

Drugs, ketamine G-LOC force the pineal gland to release chemicals which in turn affect the consciousness
to open up and experience something mystical.

[Little Rik]

You are a complete joke Yog.  

But let us start from your sentence.................. That illicit drug use is dangerous. Of course it is.................

IDIOT.  

The pineal gland does not discriminate between illicit drugs and drugs administered by a doctor.
For the gland and of course for the consciousness drugs are all bad.
They may or may not solve some short term problems but at the same time they have side effects
so at the end they are all bad.
Time by time we all need some drugs as pain killer or for different reasons but from here to say that
drugs can produce the same as an NDE here you are dreaming.
NDEs experiences do not have side effects beside there is no experiences with God so all your excuses are none but a load o'crap. (as usual of course)  


Finally let for a second put yourself in God shoes (so to speak).
Would you allow anyone who force his-her pineal gland open to experience you?