Without the Shedding of Blood There is No Remission of Sin

[Minimalist]

A blood sacrifice cannot atone for us (see Hebrews 10:4).

I wish you fucking guys would get your story straight!

[Rhondazvous]

That’s what the bible says. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. To show you how indoctrinated I was, I believed this for 25 years and never asked why. I guess it was one of those questions that are so dangerous that my programmed mind wouldn’t even consider it.

seriously?!?!?
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is Good.
That i believe was my first question ever.

No one ever gave me a good answer. Then I stumbled upon one after a boy's dog killed mine. I wanted his dog put down, and he could not understand why.

To him it was his dog, and all the things I loved about my dog he had loved in his, and because my dog did not kill his he could not understand the loss or anger I felt. He though it ok to just beat the dog, chain it outside and not give it dinner, fit the crime, because that is what he had done when the murderous dog killed other things (cats birds coons ect..)

This story if you understand it or not is about perspective. Or rather Having understanding that maybe another person or in this case being, is so hurt by your action that it demands death, That is what the bible tells us God feels about all sin.

Now because we have falsely introduce a narrative that says we are all 'good people' that means/allows us the "moral latitude" to judge God's sin list and trivialize the sins we can help but do (this is the kids punishment of no food and sleeping out side for his dog) Because the boy like we believe we are basically good, and we judge God's list of horrendous death penality acts on a sliding scale rather than looks at the sin as He looks at them. We want to filter those sins though our morality rather than respect the one who has been offended.

But why? If god is sovereign and omnipotent, how can there be a requirement for salvation that he has to comply to? It’s as if god is this low level regional manager who has to follow regulations set up by a power higher up on the divine hierarchy than he.

Because Spiritually speaking unless we are connected to God we are small and lack very basic understanding. We seldom can understand things outside of our experiences. Most of us know the crack of the whip. Most of us know the loss of Death. having experienced the seperate things we can imagine what it would be like to be beaten to death.

That physical pain we would endure, is what we asked God to endure when we simply asked to be forgiven. In order for us to understand and respect what God is made to endure, He gave his son to live out this experience before us so that we may have some idea and understanding. So that when God asks us to simply respect his son for this demnstration of Love we simply do so. Realizing the cost paid so we may understand without having to endure.

For most this seem like too much to ask.

Yet, according to the bible, god can forgive sins without shedding blood. Jesus disciples asked him why he spoke in parables. In Mark 5 he told them he spoke in parables so that the people would not understand him and repent and be forgiven. So they could have been forgiven without Jesus dying, but he decided not to do it that way.

No Jesus was going to die anyway. Jesus was not calling anyone to repent in mark 5 r telling parables he was healing people.

Was it Shakespeare who said all the world’s a stage? The sin of Adam, the passion of Christ, it’s all part of a Divine Comedy being played out on planet Earth. God is the playwright and nothing has to be, but he decides what is.  He is the blood-thirsty draconian psychopath who decided there’d be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. There’s no one above him. No one whose requirements he has to comply to. He set the price for sin and might makes right.

End of story.

if you've already made up your mind, then why ask the questions?

Is it a dare or do you think all are blind as you are blind?

Has God allowed anyone to see? or are all like me?

Now my turn. What if it was just you? what if you fell through the cracks and you for what ever reason you and your buddies here just dont get it?

It is then God's fault?

What if he sends someone to answer those question (whether you like the answers or not)? Still God's fault?

Let's look at the whole story.

This omnipotent, omniscient god sets Adam up to sin by eating the forbidden fruit. Then god feels so hurt that he demands the death of every human being thereafter. It's not about all our individual sins, since we are supposed to have been born in sin and none of asked to be born. None of us asked to be trapped in a body that craves sex.

Why should god feel hurt when he set the whole thing up unless he is a masochist who gets off on hurt?

[SteveII]

Let's look at the whole story.

This omnipotent, omniscient god sets Adam up to sin by eating the forbidden fruit. Then god feels so hurt that he demands the death of every human being thereafter. It's not about all our individual sins, since we are supposed to have been born in sin and none of asked to be born. None of us asked to be trapped in a body that craves sex.  

Why should god feel hurt when he set the whole thing up unless he is a masochist who gets off on hurt?

There you go again creating a straw man again. Nowhere does anyone believe that God's feeling were "hurt" by our actions and that is what precipitated the the punishment. Making up the other side's positions and then bashing it is not dialog.

[Rhondazvous]

That’s what the bible says. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. To show you how indoctrinated I was, I believed this for 25 years and never asked why. I guess it was one of those questions that are so dangerous that my programmed mind wouldn’t even consider it.

But why? If god is sovereign and omnipotent, how can there be a requirement for salvation that he has to comply to? It’s as if god is this low level regional manager who has to follow regulations set up by a power higher up on the divine hierarchy than he. [1]

Yet, according to the bible, god can forgive sins without shedding blood. [2] Jesus disciples asked him why he spoke in parables. In Mark 5 he told them he spoke in parables so that the people would not understand him and repent and be forgiven. So they could have been forgiven without Jesus dying, but he decided not to do it that way. [3]

Was it Shakespeare who said all the world’s a stage? The sin of Adam, the passion of Christ, it’s all part of a Divine Comedy being played out on planet Earth. God is the playwright and nothing has to be, but he decides what is.  He is the blood-thirsty draconian psychopath who decided there’d be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. There’s no one above him. No one whose requirements he has to comply to. He set the price for sin and might makes right. [4]

End of story.

1. Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes). His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy. 
2. The animal sacrifice did not take away sin (see Hebrews 10 - especially verse 4). It was a temporary device to show the seriousness of the gulf between sin and being holy until such time as a lasting atonement could be made. Nothing created could satisfy the justice attribute of an eternal God and bridge the gap to holy so God humbled himself in the person of Jesus and made a sacrifice of eternal substance with eternal significance for all time (past, present and future). 
3. I don't know to what you are referring to in Mark 5. However, God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it. 
4. You (and many atheists) think that these issues have not been discussed for millennium and all of the sudden you stumbled upon something, think you have all the data to arrive at a conclusion about a particular doctrine (when it is clear you don't) and then wonder why you/your parents/Christians in general could be so stupid. The result of this lack of knowledge is to erect straw man after straw man and point/laugh/mock.  However, unless you understand the doctrine, you are wasting your time dreaming up arguments against it. 

Take the whole post above. If you had phrased it like a question instead of a conclusion (blood-thirsty draconian psychopath), you would be engaging in productive dialog. Instead you wanted to make what turned out to be an invalid point to...what end? Make yourself feel superior? Approval of your atheist peers? Reassure yourself you made the right decision?

None of your points answers the question of why god has to require blood and torment in hell. He set the whole thing up. Put the tree of knowledge in the garden, confused the people’s language when they were working in harmony at the tower of Babel, let Satan run free on the Earth. None of these are the actions of a just god.

Christians sound like abused women when you defend the indefensible and then tell me I don’t understand.

There is more to understanding scripture than grasping isolated doctrines. I look at the whole picture and that’s where everything falls apart.

It is you who are wasting your time if you think I would love or worship a god who whose very nature requires a violent blood sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty. I cannot, by any stretch of the word, call that justice.

[Lek]

None of your points answers the question of why god has to require blood and torment in hell. He set the whole thing up. Put the tree of knowledge in the garden, confused the people’s language when they were working in harmony at the tower of Babel, let Satan run free on the Earth. None of these are the actions of a just god.

Christians sound like abused women when you defend the indefensible and then tell me I don’t understand.

There is more to understanding scripture than grasping isolated doctrines. I look at the whole picture and that’s where everything falls apart.

It is you who are wasting your time if you think I would love or worship a god who whose very nature requires a violent blood sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty. I cannot, by any stretch of the word, call that justice.

Sounds like you left God because you didn't like him. Are you an atheist?

[Drich]

Let's look at the whole story.

This omnipotent, omniscient god sets Adam up to sin by eating the forbidden fruit.

Your next response should have been to ask why.

I would have said because the bible points out that all real choice has a foundation of sin.

God wanted us to choose Him, and knew He would indure the pain of sin inorder for us to be given the oppertunity to be set free/or return home.

Then god feels so hurt that he demands the death of every human being thereafter.

which is complete internalized and self contained. He demands blood then provides it. All He asks in return is to offer respect to the one who illustrated this whole process.

It's not about all our individual sins, since we are supposed to have been born in sin and none of asked to be born

.That is a bunch of religious nonsense not even found in the bible in a central location.

None of us asked to be trapped in a body that craves sex.  

So?

Why should god feel hurt when he set the whole thing up unless he is a masochist who gets off on hurt?

Again based on the primise of if you love something let it go and if it returns it is yours...

He let us go the way of sin. would it hurt you any less if you let someone go and they betray you deeply? what even if you are ready to take them back does it hurt any less (the betrayal?) Now what if they do not return at all?

[Redbeard The Pink]

None of your points answers the question of why god has to require blood and torment in hell. He set the whole thing up. Put the tree of knowledge in the garden, confused the people’s language when they were working in harmony at the tower of Babel, let Satan run free on the Earth. None of these are the actions of a just god.

Christians sound like abused women when you defend the indefensible and then tell me I don’t understand.

There is more to understanding scripture than grasping isolated doctrines. I look at the whole picture and that’s where everything falls apart.

It is you who are wasting your time if you think I would love or worship a god who whose very nature requires a violent blood sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty. I cannot, by any stretch of the word, call that justice.

Sounds like you left God because you didn't like him. Are you an atheist?

"Explain to me what exactly requires your god to demand innocent blood for the atonement of sin. It seems that if he must demand it, he's not the boss, and if he chooses to, he's a bloodthirsty fuck."

"You just hate God is all."

Nice one, Lek. Very intellectual.

[Rhondazvous]

Let's look at the whole story.

This omnipotent, omniscient god sets Adam up to sin by eating the forbidden fruit.

Your next response should have been to ask why.

Sorry I didn't follow your script. But I knew you'd say something to make god sound neurotic, and you did.. Does it really matter why god did these things? It all boils down to the end justifying the means.

A blood sacrifice cannot atone for us (see Hebrews 10:4).

I wish you fucking guys would get your story straight!

They're making the story up as they go along, revising wherever needed and saying whatever needs to be said at the moment. What else can they do with a book as equivocal as the bible?

[Rhondazvous]

Let's look at the whole story.

This omnipotent, omniscient god sets Adam up to sin by eating the forbidden fruit. Then god feels so hurt that he demands the death of every human being thereafter. It's not about all our individual sins, since we are supposed to have been born in sin and none of asked to be born. None of us asked to be trapped in a body that craves sex.  

Why should god feel hurt when he set the whole thing up unless he is a masochist who gets off on hurt?

There you go again creating a straw man again. Nowhere does anyone believe that God's feeling were "hurt" by our actions and that is what precipitated the the punishment. Making up the other side's positions and then bashing it is not dialog.

I didn't create a strawman. Drich is the one who said god's feelings were hurt. Jump on him.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the reason you Christians keep tumbling over each other stepping on each other's feet is because your story is fucked up in the first place and makes no sense when it's all put together?

[Lek]

Sounds like you left God because you didn't like him.  Are you an atheist?

"Explain to me what exactly requires your god to demand innocent blood for the atonement of sin. It seems that if he must demand it, he's not the boss, and if he chooses to, he's a bloodthirsty fuck."

"You just hate God is all."

Nice one, Lek. Very intellectual.

I'm not concerned about being intellectual. Your posts show that you are very emotionally upset about the christian image of God. You hold him to standards that you have set for him, but God isn't required to live by our standards. I don't know why God demands blood for sin. He's the one who created everything. I just know that he does and that he loves us enough to shed that blood himself for us. Since your posts seem to contain a lot of angry statements and call God names like you do above, I was trying to determine if you don't believe because you think he's rotten. I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from. You call yourself a happy heathen and I'm not sure if it means you're an atheist or not. That's why I asked.