Without the Shedding of Blood There is No Remission of Sin

[Rhondazvous]

I'm not concerned about being intellectual.  Your posts show that you are very emotionally upset about the christian image of God.  You hold him to standards that you have set for him, but God isn't required to live by our standards.  I don't know why God demands blood for sin. He's the one who created everything.  I just know that he does and that he loves us enough to shed that blood himself for us.  Since your posts seem to contain a lot of angry statements and call God names like you do above, I was trying to determine if you don't believe because you think he's rotten.  I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from.  You call yourself a happy heathen and I'm not sure if it means you're an atheist or not.  That's why I asked.

It's not god that we call names but the god that the church invented. I'll say it again, I don't start with Jesus shedding his blood. I start with your god setting things up for Adam to sin and then making up this blood requirement for the sin he set up. Doesn't god take some responsibility for his own part in this and become a sinner himself in need of atonement for the sin he caused Adam to commit?

No god doesn't have to live by our standards, nor do we have to live by the standards the church made up and claimed were god's. You can't make up this blood thirsty god and then try to understand why we don't love him.

[GrandizerII]

"Explain to me what exactly requires your god to demand innocent blood for the atonement of sin. It seems that if he must demand it, he's not the boss, and if he chooses to, he's a bloodthirsty fuck."

"You just hate God is all."

Nice one, Lek. Very intellectual.

I'm not concerned about being intellectual.  Your posts show that you are very emotionally upset about the christian image of God.  You hold him to standards that you have set for him, but God isn't required to live by our standards.  I don't know why God demands blood for sin. He's the one who created everything.  I just know that he does and that he loves us enough to shed that blood himself for us.  Since your posts seem to contain a lot of angry statements and call God names like you do above, I was trying to determine if you don't believe because you think he's rotten.  I'm trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from.  You call yourself a happy heathen and I'm not sure if it means you're an atheist or not.  That's why I asked.

Well, I don't believe in your God, but if he did exist, I would not like him at all. I think that's virtually what many other atheists would say as well.

---

Yet, according to the bible, god can forgive sins without shedding blood. Jesus disciples asked him why he spoke in parables. In Mark 5 he told them he spoke in parables so that the people would not understand him and repent and be forgiven. So they could have been forgiven without Jesus dying, but he decided not to do it that way.

Thus contradicting Paul.

---

1. Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes). His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy.

So justice for himself, not for us? Why the hell does God need justice for himself anyway? You'd think God would be way beyond all this bullshit he's imposed on himself and on us.

[Lek]

It's not god that we call names but the god that the church invented. I'll say it again, I don't start with Jesus shedding his blood. I start with your god setting things up for Adam to sin and then making up this blood requirement for the sin he set up.  Doesn't god take some responsibility for his own part in this and become a sinner himself in need of atonement for the sin he caused Adam to commit?

No god doesn't have to live by our standards, nor do we have to live by the standards the church made up and claimed were god's.  You can't make up this blood thirsty god and then try to understand why we don't love him.

You don't seem to want to answer my question as to whether or not you are an atheist. Your arguments about the christian God hold no weight as far as I can see other than to say you think he is evil. You're just applying your own logic to how you believe God should act and that you don't believe in him. Since God is the creator of us and is a different entity, our logic cannot be determined to be the motivating force for his actions. When he determined that Jesus must die for our sins he wasn't using your logic. We just know that is what had to be and it was done in love for us. Do you believe in a god who fits your image of what he should be or are you an atheist?

[Minimalist]

I'm not concerned about being intellectual.

Lucky for you, eh?

[Chad32]

It's not god that we call names but the god that the church invented. I'll say it again, I don't start with Jesus shedding his blood. I start with your god setting things up for Adam to sin and then making up this blood requirement for the sin he set up.  Doesn't god take some responsibility for his own part in this and become a sinner himself in need of atonement for the sin he caused Adam to commit?

No god doesn't have to live by our standards, nor do we have to live by the standards the church made up and claimed were god's.  You can't make up this blood thirsty god and then try to understand why we don't love him.

You don't seem to want to answer my question as to whether or not you are an atheist.  Your arguments about the christian God hold no weight as far as I can see other than to say you think he is evil.  You're just applying your own logic to how you believe God should act and that you don't believe in him.  Since God is the creator of us and is a different entity, our logic cannot be determined to be the motivating force for his actions.  When he determined that Jesus must die for our sins he wasn't using your logic.  We just know that is what had to be and it was done in love for us.  Do you believe in a god who fits your image of what he should be or are you an atheist?

I realize that our logic is flawed, but it's the only one we have access to. You decided at some point that he was good, somehow. Either by logic, or just believing what you were told. If god is real, and he tells us he's good by definition, why believe him? It's in his nature? Says who? Him? You see the flaw in that, right? Everyone you ever talk to is going to say they're right about everything they have an opinion about. If they do something that contradicts that, and beat you up when you disagree, it doesn't make them right. It just makes them a thug.

[Lek]

I realize that our logic is flawed, but it's the only one we have access to. You decided at some point that he was good, somehow. Either by logic, or just believing what you were told. If god is real, and he tells us he's good by definition, why believe him? It's in his nature? Says who? Him? You see the flaw in that, right? Everyone you ever talk to is going to say they're right about everything they have an opinion about. If they do something that contradicts that, and beat you up when you disagree, it doesn't make them right. It just makes them a thug.

I don't believe in Zeus. I think the many of the deeds attributed to him are evil, but I don't spend any time expounding on how evil he is, and I don't use that as a reason to not believe in him. If he really is a god then I would expect him to operate with different logic than myself. A god who knows all things makes his decisions from that perspective. He makes his decisions based on their eternal implications.

[Fake Messiah]

I realize that our logic is flawed, but it's the only one we have access to. You decided at some point that he was good, somehow. Either by logic, or just believing what you were told. If god is real, and he tells us he's good by definition, why believe him? It's in his nature? Says who? Him? You see the flaw in that, right? Everyone you ever talk to is going to say they're right about everything they have an opinion about. If they do something that contradicts that, and beat you up when you disagree, it doesn't make them right. It just makes them a thug.

I don't believe in Zeus.  I think the many of the deeds attributed to him are evil, but I don't spend any time expounding on how evil he is, and I don't use that as a reason to not believe in him.  If he really is a god then I would expect him to operate with different logic than myself.  A god who knows all things makes his decisions from that perspective.  He makes his decisions based on their eternal implications.

So you see your god as all good but when he does bad things then it's not to be questioned, but at the same time he's better then all other gods. Why don't you use same logic with the Greek gods: they were all good, but their bad deeds should not be judged by, as you call it "our standards".

Not to mention that Christians believe "our standards" came from same god that apparently is not to be judged by them.

[Chad32]

I realize that our logic is flawed, but it's the only one we have access to. You decided at some point that he was good, somehow. Either by logic, or just believing what you were told. If god is real, and he tells us he's good by definition, why believe him? It's in his nature? Says who? Him? You see the flaw in that, right? Everyone you ever talk to is going to say they're right about everything they have an opinion about. If they do something that contradicts that, and beat you up when you disagree, it doesn't make them right. It just makes them a thug.

I don't believe in Zeus.  I think the many of the deeds attributed to him are evil, but I don't spend any time expounding on how evil he is, and I don't use that as a reason to not believe in him.  If he really is a god then I would expect him to operate with different logic than myself.  A god who knows all things makes his decisions from that perspective.  He makes his decisions based on their eternal implications.

Sure, but there's no large following of Zeus that goes around hurting people, and passing laws against lifestyles that Zeus doesn't approve of. Many atheists talk about god, but really our problem is with the followers. Pointing out absurdities in the bible, and how outdated god's beliefs are is just one way to get people to question their beliefs. And most religious leaders don't really want their flock to question. That's why the abrahamic religions are so authoritarian.

And if his logic is so different than ours, then how can we ever follow him? Besides following different church leaders who will inevitably fight each other over how to interpret the scripture? When I was a kid, I was told that god wants everyone to get into heaven. If that's ever going to happen, he does need to get down on our level, try to understand us, and work with us on our terms. At least if he wants a productive relationship with us. Instead it's almost impossible to know who's really going to get into heaven, because there will always be people who read the same book telling you that you're doing it wrong.

[Fake Messiah]

Not to mention that god killing himself / his son was a failure because even now, two thousand years later, most people still aren't being saved each generation. Christians are a minority worldwide. The majority of people simply don't believe the Jesus story is true. So, if it really happened, not only was the sacrifice of Jesus strange and gruesome, it was also a mostly wasted effort that has failed to save the majority of people. So god really failed.

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to have to suffer and die for me.

[vorlon13]

Not to mention that god killing himself / his son was a failure because even now, two thousand years later, most people still aren't being saved each generation. Christians are a minority worldwide. The majority of people simply don't believe the Jesus story is true. So, if it really happened, not only was the sacrifice of Jesus strange and gruesome, it was also a mostly wasted effort that has failed to save the majority of people. So god really failed.

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to have to suffer and die for me.

. . . and Jesus-ism is and has been beset by a literal orgy of schismatic fragmentation.  Hard to reconcile Christianity with ANY concept of a 'One True Faith' as literally no aspect of it is agreeably obvious to all of it's adherents.