Without the Shedding of Blood There is No Remission of Sin

[Lek]

What happened to them between the time they died and Jesus died?  So all people pre-christ were saved, but now we have new rules and only some of us are saved?

I think you're making it harder than it is. I said that everyone who is saved from the beginning of time to the end is saved by the sacrifice of Christ. I didn't say that all pre-Christ people are saved, but rather those who responded to God's call are saved. Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Abraham, for instance, had faith and trust in God when he obeyed him. Remember that God exists outside of time. A thousand years is like a second to God. As to where those who died prior to Christ's sacrifice, the bible doesn't make an exact statement of where they are, but seems to suggest that they are in a place of waiting such as described in Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Ugh.  This is like arguing if Superman gets his flight through willpower or strength.  Or if Neville was also the chosen one.  With works of fiction, it's whatever the reader interprets it to be.  You guys cannot even agree among yourselves.  Great job "god" did of communicating his perfect will to us.

Read my lips. We're saved by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It's a gift, but it's voluntary to accept it or not.

[Minimalist]

Yeah.  I just got back from church and felt the need to say something meaningful.  Now if only you could say something meaningful, that would be a shocker.

There is no such thing as a meaningful fairy tale.  The sooner you learn that the better off you'll be.

[Chad32]

Why did he wait through 4k years of people dying without being saved?  What happened to the people's "souls" who died before this supposed Jesus god/man was murdered to save future people?

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice.  Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

Then what did Jesus' life and death change, if people were able to get to heaven beforehand? If it was really needed, then why wait? Or, why not wait longer, when we were in the information age, and could have better proof of it happening?

[Lek]

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice.  Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

Then what did Jesus' life and death change, if people were able to get to heaven beforehand? If it was really needed, then why wait? Or, why not wait longer, when we were in the information age, and could have better proof of it happening?

The people who trusted in God and died before Jesus' life and death are saved through Jesus. If he had not come nobody would be saved.

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Yeah.  I just got back from church and felt the need to say something meaningful.  Now if only you could say something meaningful, that would be a shocker.

There is no such thing as a meaningful fairy tale.  The sooner you learn that the better off you'll be.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[Fake Messiah]

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice. Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

Oh yeah? How far before Christ? Did he save Homo erectus? What about Australopithecus? Don't tell me Lucy isn't being saved. Or what about Tiktaalik? Tiktaalik was our like few tenths millionth grandmother after all.

I just got back from church and felt the need to say something meaningful.

So which part of Jesus' body did you get to munch?

[Rhondazvous]

It's not god that we call names but the god that the church invented. I'll say it again, I don't start with Jesus shedding his blood. I start with your god setting things up for Adam to sin and then making up this blood requirement for the sin he set up.  Doesn't god take some responsibility for his own part in this and become a sinner himself in need of atonement for the sin he caused Adam to commit?

No god doesn't have to live by our standards, nor do we have to live by the standards the church made up and claimed were god's.  You can't make up this blood thirsty god and then try to understand why we don't love him.

You don't seem to want to answer my question as to whether or not you are an atheist.  Your arguments about the christian God hold no weight as far as I can see other than to say you think he is evil.  You're just applying your own logic to how you believe God should act and that you don't believe in him.  Since God is the creator of us and is a different entity, our logic cannot be determined to be the motivating force for his actions.  When he determined that Jesus must die for our sins he wasn't using your logic.  We just know that is what had to be and it was done in love for us.  Do you believe in a god who fits your image of what he should be or are you an atheist?

I see, so since you can't think up a reasonable counter to what I say, you opt to avoid the issue by asking irrelevant questions. My argument doesn't have to bear weight with you. You're the evangelist not me. It's on you to convince me. Personally I couldn't care less what you believe and your refusal to acknowledge what I'm saying doesn't convince me that your god is real.

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I don't believe in Zeus.  I think the many of the deeds attributed to him are evil, but I don't spend any time expounding on how evil he is, and I don't use that as a reason to not believe in him.  If he really is a god then I would expect him to operate with different logic than myself.  A god who knows all things makes his decisions from that perspective.  He makes his decisions based on their eternal implications.

It's been quite some time since evangelists for Zeus tried to force their beliefs on me and get laws passed to force me to live according to Zeusian moral codes. If they try it again, you can bet I will have something to say. And don't pretend that you wouldn't also have something to say if they tried to make public schools teach about Hades and Mount Olympus..

[Fake Messiah]

You're just applying your own logic to how you believe God should act and that you don't believe in him.

Let's face it, Lek, it's not just Rhondazvous' "logic" - as you call it - but anyone who has any sense of human decency sees your god as evil, because any normal person sees YHWH's deeds as truly abhorrent attributes. God from the bible is described as being jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal; a pyromaniac...

Now, Jesus was all that too because in many places he equated himself to YHWH and never apologized for crimes in OT. Not just that, but Jesus was an idiot and like his worshipers (Christians) cherry-picked Bible to support a tenuous arguments like when he used it to justify his sloppy sanitary habits. If Jesus were truly the son of an omniscient God, he would have known to tell people to wash their hands before they eat. He could have informed them about germs millennia before science figured it out.

So maybe you don't have a problem worshiping an evil idiot but don't act like you can't understand when other people do have that problem.

[Drich]

Your next response should have been to ask why.

Sorry I didn't follow your script. But I knew you'd say something to make god sound neurotic, and you did.. Does it really matter why god did these things? It all boils down to the end justifying the means.

I wish you fucking guys would get your story straight!

They're making the story up as they go along, revising wherever needed and saying whatever needs to be said at the moment. What else can they do with a book as equivocal as the bible?

In short. Without sin there is only God's will. Only God's will =no ability to choose anything outside of it. Enter the knoweledge of god's will and of evil. Now we have choice for the first time.

Problem chose sin= choose death.

but if sinner choose to repent, they choose life and God.

God from the beginning set up the process of sin and repentance so that we may choose to be with God, or to separate ourselves from Him.

[The Grand Nudger]

How is that the only blood sacrifice that atones us, if it's even a blood sacrifice that -can- atone us..if that's even possible?

UIf it wre possible, and was a blood sacrifice that could atone us, why would we accept the offer?  Can we accept the offer and remain consistently moral agents?

No amount of repeating the articles of your faith can or will answer these questions.

A blood sacrifice cannot atone for us (see Hebrews 10:4). Justice and holiness are essential qualities of God. If God's holiness and justice required that sin results in total separation from God for eternity for each person, everyone was doomed (we have all sinned and are not holy).  As the penalty of sin was death for us, God's substitution required death. However, because he was eternal and perfect, his death was sufficient for all of mankind--thus satisfying the requirements of his essential nature.

-the articles of your faith.  

UIf it wre possible, and was a blood sacrifice that could atone us, why would we accept the offer?  Can we accept the offer and remain consistently moral agents?

The reason I accept the offer is because that's what he wants me to do and I serve him.  Living with him for eternity also is something I want to experience.

You have a master and he wants you to do something, but this slavish remark answers none of the quoted questions.  "I was just following orders" has a shitty track record.  You want something, excellent, I understand that completely.  Is the torture and death of another an ok way to get the things we want?

[Harry Nevis]

None of your points answers the question of why god has to require blood and torment in hell. He set the whole thing up. Put the tree of knowledge in the garden, confused the people’s language when they were working in harmony at the tower of Babel, let Satan run free on the Earth. None of these are the actions of a just god.

Christians sound like abused women when you defend the indefensible and then tell me I don’t understand.

There is more to understanding scripture than grasping isolated doctrines. I look at the whole picture and that’s where everything falls apart.

It is you who are wasting your time if you think I would love or worship a god who whose very nature requires a violent blood sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty. I cannot, by any stretch of the word, call that justice.

Sounds like you left God because you didn't like him.  Are you an atheist?

Nice dodge.

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It's not god that we call names but the god that the church invented. I'll say it again, I don't start with Jesus shedding his blood. I start with your god setting things up for Adam to sin and then making up this blood requirement for the sin he set up.  Doesn't god take some responsibility for his own part in this and become a sinner himself in need of atonement for the sin he caused Adam to commit?

No god doesn't have to live by our standards, nor do we have to live by the standards the church made up and claimed were god's.  You can't make up this blood thirsty god and then try to understand why we don't love him.

You don't seem to want to answer my question as to whether or not you are an atheist.  Your arguments about the christian God hold no weight as far as I can see other than to say you think he is evil.  You're just applying your own logic to how you believe God should act and that you don't believe in him.  Since God is the creator of us and is a different entity, our logic cannot be determined to be the motivating force for his actions.  When he determined that Jesus must die for our sins he wasn't using your logic.  We just know that is what had to be and it was done in love for us.  Do you believe in a god who fits your image of what he should be or are you an atheist?

Since logic goes out the window as far as understanding god, i guess the terms like, "love", "justice", etc. don't mean much either.

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Yeah.  I just got back from church and felt the need to say something meaningful.  Now if only you could say something meaningful, that would be a shocker.

Meaningful to who?

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Sorry I didn't follow your script. But I knew you'd say something to make god sound neurotic, and you did.. Does it really matter why god did these things? It all boils down to the end justifying the means.

They're making the story up as they go along, revising wherever needed and saying whatever needs to be said at the moment. What else can they do with a book as equivocal as the bible?

In short. Without sin there is only God's will. Only God's will =no ability to choose anything outside of it. Enter the knoweledge of god's will and of evil. Now we have choice for the first time.

Problem chose sin= choose death.

but if sinner choose to repent, they choose life and God.

God from the beginning set up the process of sin and repentance so that we may choose to be with God, or to separate ourselves from Him.

But we don't choose sin do we?  it's chosen for us!  Not out of anything we did, just out of what 2 people did.  Mmmm, love that taste of justice!