Atheist extremism is bad... mkay?

[downbeatplumb]

Why attack people in the name of there not being a god?

I can understand exposing flaws in logic, evidence and such, and getting agitated when people continue to peddle poor arguments once they've been roundly demolished.

I just dont get the bile.

Unless they've had the close attention of a catholic priest.

[thesummerqueen]

I’ve had to take our conversation out of the forums and put it on a Word document so I can view it all easily…haha. Love it.

“I totally agree with that, but the reason I brought you up about using the term "hate speech" is because it's used by many people as an automatic dismissal of the persons views and how he came to those views, and that dismissal is counter productive to finding solutions. I've spoken with the kind of people that would be described as engaging in "hate speech" in my life and because I didn't switch myself off and zone out I was able to turn them around and find common ground and build on that ground.”

>>>I hear and understand. Perhaps it was the wrong description, but it seemed the best one to use at the time in accordance to what Void was posting about.

“My point really is that an atheist activist has more in common with an atheist extremist (whatever extremism may be), and for them to argue with themselves while their common enemy is still doing as he pleases it makes no sense whatsoever.”

>>>This is the same debate that goes through the skeptical community – “why are we arguing about HOW we’re doing things when we could be taking out religious leaders and quacks?” I guess if you turn it around, there are plenty of people outside the Muslim community who say that Muslims should be arguing with themselves as well to take out the fuckers who think it’s okay to kill ‘infidels’. (Don’t anyone write back that bullshit that all Muslims think alike – I know they don’t any more than all Jews or all Christians do.). The spiteful language Void was talking about is useless, even detrimental, in the fight against that “common enemy” and it needs to be argued amongst ourselves whether or not it should continue. Otherwise somewhere down the line you’re staring at whether or not the ends justified the means (in some situations).

“A christian will define you as an extremist once you tell him that you're an athiest. He'll regard your opinion as invalid and switch off to anything you say, and so often passive and polite conversation isn't enough to convince him otherwise.”

>>>Not 90% of the Christians I’ve met, but that’s just my experience. Many are quite curious. Some already have doubts and just need a gentle push. The younger ones especially don’t need much coaxing at all.

“In my experience- and i'm a product of the society i'm in and I know attitudes are different elsewhere but i'm in england and I see a lot of indifference and a lot of problems caused by ineffective moderate political attitudes, and its because moderation and passivity just doesnt work when you're dealing with christians or anybody who has the option of not listening to you! In contrast to moderation and passivity, it's only when i've displayed passion or anger that these people have dropped their condesending attitude and begun to listen to what i've said and take it on board- and vise versa.”

>>>Living in America, my observation is that we’re nothing but a mixed bundle of passions – you could argue that we broke away from England because of a few individuals passionately arguing for certain freedoms (we’ll leave which they are to another discussion). The only thing that I notice that limits this is a propensity to be politically correct, and even that is a hotly debated issue. We have a lot of people running around in this country using the First Amendment as their defense to say and sometimes do whatever they want, and that’s to their credit – it’s what that amendment is for. We’re not arguing whether or not the people Void mentioned are ALLOWED to say those ‘hateful’ things…we’re arguing the usefulness of it, by the way, before anyone questions that either.

“What i'm trying to get across here is that if you can convince an evangelist through polite conversation that he may have been in error in his beliefs then my hat goes off to you, well done, but if you can't convince him by that method, will you give up?”
>>>Interesting question – glad you asked it, as I will have to think about it some more. I have to say honestly that I’ve never been presented with a situation where I’ve calmly debated against a Christian and not at least made ‘headway’ and caused him/her to reconsider, or at least tell me to my face that they have things to think about. Perhaps I’ve just been incredibly fortunate, perhaps I’ve been lied to, I don’t know. I take that back – on Shell B’s Associated Content page, I did argue with a rather idiotic Christian woman who simply disappeared and I had no way of continuing the conversation after that. I suppose I’ll never know how things turn out, but I don’t know if I could call that ‘giving up’ either.

“So for that reason I don't think that you'd ever find an atheist lynching a christian, you may find that christian being vigourously talked sense to, but certianly not treated with violence for the sake of violence.”

>>>I’m just saying, hypothetically – stranger things have happened. In the arena of politics (not that religion doesn’t blend in with it, unfortunately), we had a guy ram his car into the back of another car because he had an Obama bumper sticker. Maybe the first dude was just racist, that could have been the real reason, I don’t know, but if there is violence possibly motivated by opinions towards a secular establishment…

[thesummerqueen]

I also realized I kept saying "Void" instead of "Paul" for the author of the original posting. Apologies. This is what happens when I post when I'm at work and keep half a brain on my job and one eye on my boss's whereabouts.

[Cerrone]

I spent nearly an hour on that last reply, couldnt believe where the time went lol

>>>This is the same debate that goes through the skeptical community – “why are we arguing about HOW we’re doing things when we could be taking out religious leaders and quacks?” I guess if you turn it around, there are plenty of people outside the Muslim community who say that Muslims should be arguing with themselves as well to take out the fuckers who think it’s okay to kill ‘infidels’. (Don’t anyone write back that bullshit that all Muslims think alike – I know they don’t any more than all Jews or all Christians do.). The spiteful language Void was talking about is useless, even detrimental, in the fight against that “common enemy” and it needs to be argued amongst ourselves whether or not it should continue. Otherwise somewhere down the line you’re staring at whether or not the ends justified the means (in some situations).

Yeah I kind of agree, even though i've found that the ends usually do justify the means as much as people irrationally deny that fact. But like I said, if you can achieve the same positive result and do it courteously then thats great. My only doubt is that when people do meet the more ignorant kinds of religious people that polite conversation isn't going to cut it. Believe me i've had so many conversations with evangelists and casual believers in my life and it isn't until the conversation gets heated and you don't pull your punches that you really begin to open their eyes.

>>>Living in America, my observation is that we’re nothing but a mixed bundle of passions – you could argue that we broke away from England because of a few individuals passionately arguing for certain freedoms (we’ll leave which they are to another discussion). The only thing that I notice that limits this is a propensity to be politically correct, and even that is a hotly debated issue. We have a lot of people running around in this country using the First Amendment as their defense to say and sometimes do whatever they want, and that’s to their credit – it’s what that amendment is for. We’re not arguing whether or not the people Void mentioned are ALLOWED to say those ‘hateful’ things…we’re arguing the usefulness of it, by the way, before anyone questions that either.

Ah political correctness, yeah that comes back to extremism and hate speech doesnt it? lol.. well political correctness is another form of moderation, I don't hold with it myself. Surely political correctness is just hate speech in reverse, when you're afraid of talking about whatever issue because a certian member of the group involved in that issue is within earshot, but all that does is prolong the issue through a lack of discussion to find a resolution. Like how the Israelis refuse to talk with Hamas or Hezbollah, or how our governments refuse to talk with "terrorist" factions in the middle east...

But if you feel strongly about anything, talk about it! You shouldn't avoid doing that just because your words may cause somebody offence.. and if they are offended, then explain your position and if they aren't completely closedminded they should explain theirs as well and then a dialouge has been created!

This is what i'm saying about moderation; if people aren't able to talk honestly and openly for fear of causing offence through being bound by politcal correctness or the vanity to be perceived as being calm and indifferent then how do they hope to settle disputes? If honest conversation isn't able to happen then disputes and issues just fester away until they erupt in some other violent or unsavoury form of extremism. That's why i'm more inclined toward passionate debate- however much bile it may appear is being thrown up- because it is infinately less conceited and a thousand times more productive in the long term.

>>>I’m just saying, hypothetically – stranger things have happened. In the arena of politics (not that religion doesn’t blend in with it, unfortunately), we had a guy ram his car into the back of another car because he had an Obama bumper sticker. Maybe the first dude was just racist, that could have been the real reason, I don’t know, but if there is violence possibly motivated by opinions towards a secular establishment…

Actually if christians did find themselves persecuted by an atheist inquisition that'd be a very sweet irony..

[Paul the Human]

I pretty much agree with everything you just said, Cerrone. Particularly the three paragraphs discussing political correctness and moderation.

Do you understand now that what I was bitching about (and that's all this was... a small rant) were people that spew unprovoked vitriol and hate? Not those that actually care about the issues involved and wish to change them, but the ones that damage that very cause by expressing nothing but anger, intolerance, and ignorance.

As I said before... there is a big difference between activism and extremism.

[thesummerqueen]

But if you feel strongly about anything, talk about it! You shouldn't avoid doing that just because your words may cause somebody offence.. and if they are offended, then explain your position and if they aren't completely closedminded they should explain theirs as well and then a dialouge has been created!

This is what i'm saying about moderation; if people aren't able to talk honestly and openly for fear of causing offence through being bound by politcal correctness or the vanity to be perceived as being calm and indifferent then how do they hope to settle disputes? If honest conversation isn't able to happen then disputes and issues just fester away until they erupt in some other violent or unsavoury form of extremism. That's why i'm more inclined toward passionate debate- however much bile it may appear is being thrown up- because it is infinately less conceited and a thousand times more productive in the long term.

I have a few minutes before math class (ugh!!) and the boss just left ...

"But if you feel strongly about anything, talk about it!" >>>Absolutely - I don't want you to get the idea that I'm a pacifist or anything like that, or that I hold myself on some pedestal because I seem to be preaching moderation. I'm not perfect, and I've certainly broken down and cussed the ever living shit out of a few people who were frustrating me. I've wanted to shove hand grenades down certain religious leaders' throats. It's the consequences of these actions that make me stop and say "Hey, let's try calm discussion for absolutely as long as possible."

Sometimes things do need big shows of passion to get the point across. However, the line comes with how you define passion and extremism and even terrorism. One could play devil's advocate and say the 9/11 hijackers were just proving their passion against infidels and towards Allah, and they thought this was an acceptable way to go. Someone should have told them you get more flies with honey. I know this analogy doesn't work in all cases...just that some things labeled 'extreme' have absolutely no benefit except towards more fear and hatred. One needs to be careful, is all.

I'm no fan of being PC - I believe in being polite and informed, and I truly do believe from experience that if I prove I'm speaking from a position of some knowledge and willingness to understand, being PC isn't an issue - with reasonable people. Our governments are made up of people, and unfortunately, even though we elect them on some retarded basis of them being oh-so-smart in the political arena (don't I wish that were always true), they're still human and prone to the same ignorance as the rest of us and I think it surprises people that a lot of them know no more about the cultures and religions they're supposed to be dealing with than your average american. I guess they don't have the time to do the research (heavy sarcasm, by the way). Of course, eventually you're going to run into a crazy who isn't reasonable. Then the tables turn. On most forums though...you're not dealing with a psycho dictator who holds the reins of power, or even an average dude in some position of authority, just loud-mouthed brats posting more fodder on the internet for other people to see and say "man...these guys suck..."

And my time's up.

[freemike]

What's wrong with extremist atheist? Seriously we don't fly planes into buildings. Nah just joking but anything to the extreme is bad. Water will kill you if drink large enough quantities of it. I agree with the people that said being an activist and an extremist are two completely different things. I usually have a few healthy debates on this a week actually just because I am the only atheist I know. So I pretty much disagree with everyone I know, though most let me be lol.

[Cerrone]

I'm no fan of being PC - I believe in being polite and informed, and I truly do believe from experience that if I prove I'm speaking from a position of some knowledge and willingness to understand, being PC isn't an issue - with reasonable people. Our governments are made up of people, and unfortunately, even though we elect them on some retarded basis of them being oh-so-smart in the political arena (don't I wish that were always true), they're still human and prone to the same ignorance as the rest of us and I think it surprises people that a lot of them know no more about the cultures and religions they're supposed to be dealing with than your average american. I guess they don't have the time to do the research (heavy sarcasm, by the way). Of course, eventually you're going to run into a crazy who isn't reasonable. Then the tables turn. On most forums though...you're not dealing with a psycho dictator who holds the reins of power, or even an average dude in some position of authority, just loud-mouthed brats posting more fodder on the internet for other people to see and say "man...these guys suck..."

It's part of our culture i think that we value the charisma of the media and politicians more than people with any real intelligence, and charisma itself should be a channel for intelligence, it shouldn't be a respectable skill in and of itself, because by itself charisma is worthless. I mean, i'm sure you've been in a meaningful conversation at least once and somebody else has come along and contaminated it somehow by telling a joke or saying something stupid they think is charismatic or sociable to do. But until people are educated properly they'll keep making the wrong choices, and they'll keep thanking god that their government lets them make choices.. even if they're the wrong ones, and even if the government relies on the sheer weight of mass information to confuse people, and the if corporations use it to make money for themselves and exploit, while at the the same time the world continues to sink.

I know you can only go so far to convince people online, it's mostly about people happening to find you when they're in the right frame of mind to accept what you've got to say, but if they're people who've realised the same thing that you have and come to the same conclusions, and even if they're only one or two people who read and understand what you've said here, then i'd consider it a success.

As for the loud-mouthed brats lol, forget about them.

[Anomalocaris]

I would regard a atheist to be something of an extremist if, when finding himself in conversation with theist stranger concerning a topic totally unrelated to the any aspect of theism, he would custmarily change the topic to challenge theism and annoy the theist.

I would also regard an atheist to be something of an extremist if, when a conversation with a theist concerning theism comes to an unproductive deadend and the theist attempts to change the topic, he would customarily refuses to allow the topic to be changed.

This form of extremism might not be as spectacular as putting on a suicide vest and walking into a pentacostal meeting, but it is disgraceful enough.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Everyone has the right to be an aggressive and opinionated twat.

Many aggressive and opinionated twats also happen to be atheists, but they are not aggressive and opinionated twats BECAUSE they are atheists.

As atheism is not an ideology or political movement,there is absolutely nothing I need do 'as an atheist'. However, I'm also a skeptic,moral relativist and political pluralist.There are a great many things I may choose to do from those positions.One of my choices is to say unkind things to proselytisers,theist or atheist ,who get in my face.