are you left,right or centre?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I pretty much fit into the adage " If a person is not a socialist at 20 he has no heart.If he is still a socialist at 40 he has no head". Took me a long time work out a satisfying interpretation. I finally decided it's a warning against all political ideologies, especially those of the Utopian variety.

A child of the 60's,we were going to change the world ,saving it from the mess made by our parents.--and a bang up job we've done too. I spent my teens and early adulthood involved in various causes and activism. Committed unionist and member of the Australian Labor Party.If not actually a communist, I was certainly a fellow traveler.


Today I describe myself as a radical,rather than left or right. I distrust all forms of authority and all professional politicians.My view is that politics and business are amoral by nature. My observation is some politicians seem to enter politics as relatively moral and ethical people ,but that few remain so for long.

Do I trust Obama and his administration? Absolutely not. He's already shown he's just another very ordinary politician who is not going to rock the boat. Our PM TinTin, and his government is worse;a clueless shower. .

[josef rosenkranz]

bozo wrote
So you were being ironic about Almighty God were you?
You are right in pointing out that the big mistake down the years has not been the overthrow of rotten and unjust capitalist systems but that the high ideals became themselves corrupted subsequently. Orwell captured this in Animal Farm quite brilliantly.
The starting point must be that capitalism is a corrupt system , where there are few winners and very many losers. It will not last forever and it will get even more corrupt and even more evil as its demise approaches.
Some of us look to that moment with both apprehension and hope.
If something even more evil , barbarism for example, replaces it, then the world will indeed be an ugly place to be.
On the other hand, if socialism, or something approaching it, prevails ,then there is hope.
I don't accept we need another Marx. What may happen is a change in the political zeitgeist, where instead of right-wing and reactionary opinion holding sway, we will see a shift leftwards, across the globe, and a rebirth of socialist ideology.
Bring it on.

[/quote]

Sorry but you got me totally wrong.
The Bolshevik revolution really overthrew capitalism and so did the other communist states.
I did not say that high ideals became corrupted due to mistakes made by the rulers.
What I explained are intrinsec contradictions of the socialist system between the individual and his aspirations on one side and the interest of the state and his goals on the other side.
That's what generated corruption.
As long as one will not find the principles which will be capable to overbridge the essential contradiction between individual liberty and collective interests,all dreams of leftist or enlightened rulers are doomed to be steps in the dark.
You are right that barbarism is luring in the darkness grinning at insuccesses of capitalism and awaiting to come in the open with a new brand of totalitarianism. Al-Quaida ,Taliban, Hezbollah,Hamas and alike are of this type of barbarians,all sworn enemies of modern civilization
dreaming only how to bring destruction and death on innocent people ,between others on their own kind.Being an atheist for them is akeen to being a candidate for barbaric beheading.

[bozo]

bozo wrote
So you were being ironic about Almighty God were you?
You are right in pointing out that the big mistake down the years has not been the overthrow of rotten and unjust capitalist systems but that the high ideals became themselves corrupted subsequently. Orwell captured this in Animal Farm quite brilliantly.
The starting point must be that capitalism is a corrupt system , where there are few winners and very many losers. It will not last forever and it will get even more corrupt and even more evil as its demise approaches.
Some of us look to that moment with both apprehension and hope.
If something even more evil , barbarism for example, replaces it, then the world will indeed be an ugly place to be.
On the other hand, if socialism, or something approaching it, prevails ,then there is hope.
I don't accept we need another Marx. What may happen is a change in the political zeitgeist, where instead of right-wing and reactionary opinion holding sway, we will see a shift leftwards, across the globe, and a rebirth of socialist ideology.
Bring it on.

Sorry but you got me totally wrong.
The Bolshevik revolution really overthrew capitalism and so did the other communist states.
I did not say that high ideals became corrupted due to mistakes made by the rulers.
What I explained are intrinsec contradictions of the socialist system between the individual and his aspirations on one side and the interest of the state and his goals on the other side.
That's what generated corruption.
As long as one will not find the principles which will be capable to overbridge the essential contradiction between individual liberty and collective interests,all dreams of leftist or enlightened rulers are doomed to be steps in the dark.
You are right that barbarism is luring in the darkness grinning at insuccesses of capitalism and awaiting to come in the open with a new brand of totalitarianism. Al-Quaida ,Taliban, Hezbollah,Hamas and alike are of this type of barbarians,all sworn enemies of modern civilization
dreaming only how to bring destruction and death on innocent people ,between others on their own kind.Being an atheist for them is akeen to being a candidate for barbaric beheading.
[/quote]

I know what you said, I said ideals got corrupted not you.

---

I pretty much fit into the adage " If a person is not a socialist at 20 he has no heart.If he is still a socialist at 40 he has no head". Took me a long time work out a satisfying interpretation. I finally decided it's a warning against all political ideologies, especially those of the Utopian variety.

A child of the 60's,we were going to change the world ,saving it from the mess made by our parents.--and a bang up job we've done too. I spent my teens and early adulthood involved in various causes and activism. Committed unionist and member of the Australian Labor Party.If not actually a communist, I was certainly a fellow traveler.


Today I describe myself as a radical,rather than left or right. I distrust all forms of authority and all professional politicians.My view is that politics and business are amoral by nature. My observation is some politicians seem to enter politics as relatively moral and ethical people ,but that few remain so for long.

Do I trust Obama and his administration? Absolutely not. He's already shown he's just another very ordinary politician who is not going to rock the boat. Our PM TinTin, and his government is worse;a clueless shower. .

I too date from the 60's....a great era in history but which now gets bad press from reactionaries all around.
I agree about politicians but not about having a socialist vision.
We either elect better...or take some alternative action, eventualy.

[bozo]

from how you see things I would say you are way to the right of him. You are well into the capitalist ethos from how you describe what concerns you....YOU.

I wouldn't put myself on the left/right line at all. I think that's too, well 2 dimensional.

I haven't read " Atlas Shrugged " but I'll read it if you read " The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists " and then we can debate. Deal?

Definitely, my man. I love books and I'll read anything of quality. Moreover, I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. I used to be very pro-death penalty, but someone showed me a very convincing argument to turn my opinion around 180 degrees.

-- Jon

To bring anyone following this up to date...I bought the book " Atlas Shrugged " and gave up pretty early. Jon hasn't answered my question he's not appeared since...maybe he's engrossed in the book I recommended!

[bozo]

Finally, thanks to this wonderful capitalist society that I have to survive in, a happy ending
I put old Atlas back on ebay....and sold it for a bit more than I paid for it!
Vive la systeme!

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Depends on the issue.

I no longer identify with a particular ideology. Generally I tend to be radical,being suspicious of all forms of authority.However, I'm not a Libertarian,especially of the peculiar American variety, which seems bourgeois and self indulgent to me.

I tend to agree* with the aphorism "if you're not a Socialist at 20 you have no heart.If you're still a Socialist at 40 you have no head"


*Can one "agree-ish"? If so,I do.

[bozo]

Depends on the issue.

I no longer identify with a particular ideology. Generally I tend to be radical,being suspicious of all forms of authority.However, I'm not a Libertarian,especially of the peculiar American variety, which seems bourgeois and self indulgent to me.

I tend to agree* with the aphorism "if you're not a Socialist at 20 you have no heart.If you're still a Socialist at 40 you have no head"


*Can one "agree-ish"? If so,I do.

Hate that aphorism. Don't agree with it at all.

[Edwardo Piet]

That aphorism just sounds like it's not really been thought through at all really. There's more to it than that.

If it's just some stereotypical catchy cliché that's one thing, if it's meant to actually be properly accurate then that's another.

EvF

[Overmars]

I am interested to learn where you all stand on the political spectrum.
I am a socialist with marxist tendencies. I cannot accept capitalism as the best option for all of us on the planet.
What say you all?

I oppose capitalism too, although I could support a form capitalism in which is based on a labour theory of value.

Social anarchism makes a lot of sense, but I really can't see that emerging from the "take as much as you can, give as little" attitude I see in many people

social anarchism sounds good in theory but unfortunately won't work in practice

[Giff]

I am interested to learn where you all stand on the political spectrum.
I am a socialist with marxist tendencies. I cannot accept capitalism as the best option for all of us on the planet.
What say you all?

I oppose capitalism too, although I could support a form capitalism in which is based on a labour theory of value.

Social anarchism makes a lot of sense, but I really can't see that emerging from the "take as much as you can, give as little" attitude I see in many people

social anarchism sounds good in theory but unfortunately won't work in practice

Agree with you there