are you left,right or centre?

[bozo]

Adrian, here are some answers:

1. Currently a very small percentage ( forgive me I can't quote the actual latest statistic but it is astonishingly small )of the mega rich own something like 70-80% of the wealth of the world. You know about the third world, need I expand on that? I hope not.
Under socialism there would be a cap on how much wealth any individual could amass and at the beginning I would anticipate force being required both to win the day over the capitalist class and to relieve the mega rich of their booty. Socialism established, the new dawn would bring a stark redistribution in favour of the proletariat.

2. Under socialism work would not be as it is under capitalism i.e. worship of money and power. Since millionaires would not exist and workers do what they are good at and interested in, for the good of society, the workshy would be few and far between. A further bonus would be the effect on crime i.e it would not be such a problem as it is under capitalism.

3. ( which you say is less important for me to answer, curiously! )
How we get to socialism has been debated down the years. Will it be through the ballot box or by bloody revolution? I think the latter, sadly. I say this because I don't believe the ruling capitalist class will readily concede, even after a democratic process. ( another reading ref. try " The Iron Heel " by Jack London........a wonderful work ,written in the future, when socialism has been established and looking back at the evils of capitalism ).

I should stress the obvious here and now that I cannot give you the " quick fix " answers you would like. Socialism is being built as we speak, but it will take a long time for capitalism to die...and don't ask me how long I don't know!
You appear to dismiss the idea of reading the Ragger Trousered because it was written in the last century. The issues it raises e.g. exploitation of workers, workers undercutting each other to get work, crooked politicians, " charity " ( to make the well-off feel better about themselves ), malevolent churchpeople, silly allegiancies to redundant political parties, the hammering down of the aspirations of the working class are as relevant today as they were 100 years ago and beyond.
The book delivers its verdict on capitalism and sets out the socialist alternative.

I have no doubt that you will think this to be, at best utopian, at worst the rantings of a madman. It's your choice.
But I at least have a vision for a better society and have not given uup the hope of it being realised one far-off day.

[LukeMC]

Seeing brain surgeons being paid the same as MacDonalds workers is a very odd concept indeed But I'm open to the idea, things may not be as they seem...

OK Luke, who do you value most....the garbage collector or an investment banker?

Well, why would I spend 13 years in compulsory education, 2 years in 6th form and 3-8 years in a university to pursue a career in brain surgery when I could just get a job as a garbage collector? Obviously I love science and would thoroughly enjoy the learning and the job, but on the same paycheck as a garbage collector, how do I pay off the tuition fees in one lifetime? I'll be in debt until I die. Not an enticing concept, especially when I have ambitions to see the northern lights, visit africa and have an actual garden of my own instead of living in a tower block. Unless socialism would make university nice and cheap? In which case, I'd be more than happy to go through all that hard work for a low wage, because I'm not in it for the money. I just want enough money to exercise a few freedoms.

[bozo]

Seeing brain surgeons being paid the same as MacDonalds workers is a very odd concept indeed But I'm open to the idea, things may not be as they seem...

OK Luke, who do you value most....the garbage collector or an investment banker?

Well, why would I spend 13 years in compulsory education, 2 years in 6th form and 3-8 years in a university to pursue a career in brain surgery when I could just get a job as a garbage collector? Obviously I love science and would thoroughly enjoy the learning and the job, but on the same paycheck as a garbage collector, how do I pay off the tuition fees in one lifetime? I'll be in debt until I die. Not an enticing concept, especially when I have ambitions to see the northern lights, visit africa and have an actual garden of my own instead of living in a tower block. Unless socialism would make university nice and cheap? In which case, I'd be more than happy to go through all that hard work for a low wage, because I'm not in it for the money. I just want enough money to exercise a few freedoms.

With respect Luke, I think you misunderstand the question. What I am getting at in response to your query about the same reward for a brain surgeon and a Mcdonalds worker is how do you, me, we value occupations?
If I were to answer my own question I would value the garbage collector because without them, rodents would infestate everything and my health would be in danger. I don't have pots of money, so I have no need for an investment banker. In addition, I value workers who actually produce things useful to people over those that contribute nothing save juggling figures around. I think the wage differentials that exist are immoral.

[Meatball]

I think people would need more motivation than "it's what you enjoy" to spend 6 years in grueling post-secondary education to make the same wage as everybody else. You need some kind of incentive. People are generally stupid and lazy, and you need to raise the bar to let truly gifted (or motivated) people shine.

Complete socialism is a joke. We all know it doesn't work.

[bozo]

I think people would need more motivation than "it's what you enjoy" to spend 6 years in grueling post-secondary education to make the same wage as everybody else. You need some kind of incentive. People are generally stupid and lazy, and you need to raise the bar to let truly gifted (or motivated) people shine.

Complete socialism is a joke. We all know it doesn't work.

Truly a jaundiced view of humankind.

[Meatball]

Any evidence to the contrary?

We don't have mega-rich corporate fat-cats stepping on poverty-line working class families because of capitalism. It happens in communist states too. We have that because people are greedy and self-serving. That's the bottom line.

Marx was a great thinker, and he dreamed up a great utopia. Unfortunately, it's just that, a dream.

[bozo]

Any evidence to the contrary?

We don't have mega-rich corporate fat-cats stepping on poverty-line working class families because of capitalism. It happens in communist states too. We have that because people are greedy and self-serving. That's the bottom line.

Marx was a great thinker, and he dreamed up a great utopia. Unfortunately, it's just that, a dream.

You think people are born that way?
Would you actually like to see socialism realised?

[Meatball]

Are people born that way? I think so. I think it's obvious that we've evolved to want to rise to the top and succeed at the expense of others. It's human nature.

Would I like to see it? Oh definitely. If humanity could put aside things like ambition/greed and come together in one big collective of progress it would be wonderful.

I truly don't think it's feasible, but it would be a beautiful thing.

[bozo]

Are people born that way? I think so. I think it's obvious that we've evolved to want to rise to the top and succeed at the expense of others. It's human nature.

Would I like to see it? Oh definitely. If humanity could put aside things like ambition/greed and come together in one big collective of progress it would be wonderful.

I truly don't think it's feasible, but it would be a beautiful thing.

Do you not think it more probable that people are shaped by the environment they are born into? I do.

Pleased you would wish socialism to be achieved.

[josef rosenkranz]

Where do you live?
At least you concede that capitalism isn't perfect.....quite an understatement I'd say. You don't criticise people for seeking something better do you?
You assume that what is happening in south america will fail....why do you not rejoice that countries are seeking to build the socialist alternative to capitalism?
I hope your last point is realised. I hope something better replaces capitalism eventually. I know of no other viable system than socialism at this moment in time.

I live in Israel.
Does this help you in the debate over the ideal social system?
I think -not a bit.
Now ,I would say as a paraphrase that utopia dreamer never die they only change.
The modern democratic capitalism has without any doubt good things
as well as bad things.
Do you know any thing except God the allmighty which is only good and not a bit bad? I don't.
The history of mankind has it's way and so if we look at the dreamers of the 19-th century we see that they succeeded finaly in giving birth to the communist system which begun with the Soviet Union and then spread to a great deal of other countries.
Their basic doctrine was laid out by Marx and put in practice by the leaders of the Soviet Union,by Maotzetung in China and by others.
Living for many years in a communist country before I immigrated to Israel made me know this system from inside with all it's advantages and disadvantages.
There were a lot of advantages as for instance free of charge education,free of charge healthcare,practical inexistence of unemployment ,low prices for cultural elements (books,cinema ,theatre ,et cetera) as for sports.
But all these advantages were reduced by the existence of a dictatorial
political system based on a secret police which watched over every citizen.One mass media led by the communist party had the role to praise daily the achievements of the system, to denigrate the "imperialistic american " social system and to menace people who would dare to criticize communism.
The terror which brought to the death of millions in the Soviet Union and in China was in the late 50-th of the 20-th century replaced by an economic terror which held the system together till it collapsed all of a sudden.
People who were born in a free country will never be able to understand what it means to live in a dictatorial country.
True that in the States afro-americans have suffered much from racism
but as we see now there is a historical process of gradual disparition of
racism.
Now,does anybody dream to revive the communist system? May be some, but very few and not people who have lived there.
One could say O.K.we would like a socialist system, not a dictatorial one but a democratic one.The problem is that the idea is not such new as it seems but was tried in the 20-th century by some utopic politicians and they all failed totally.
You can be enthusiastic about Chavez but he is already on the path of
considering himself as a kind of a social genius,a new Fidel, who begun in the same way and ended up in making miserable his people for so many years.
As I said ,may be that in the near future we will have a new Marx who will be able to find a better way between the two sysems of capitalism and communism,but what we see up to day is far from being just that.