are you left,right or centre?

[Meatball]

In children care centers and elder care asses get wiped all the time by strangers and not only for-profit. And why should it be only for-profit? You're arguing from a POV that assumes abilities that some lack.

There are a lot of things that the government can do. That doesn't mean they should. Is it really the government's responsibility to level the playing field for everyone?

But let's take another example. Have you observed how market parties standardized electric chargers for mobile phones so we didn't need all these variants lying around everywhere contributing to the waste problem? Me neither! Sometimes someone has to step in to organize things that market parties feel no urge to organize.

I'm not sure how this applies to education.

[Purple Rabbit]

In children care centers and elder care asses get wiped all the time by strangers and not only for-profit. And why should it be only for-profit? You're arguing from a POV that assumes abilities that some lack.

There are a lot of things that the government can do. That doesn't mean they should. Is it really the government's responsibility to level the playing field for everyone?

Did I say they should? If the free market can self-organize it, fine by me. We're talking about wiping ass, not leveling playing fields. It's about moral hygiene and taking responsibility beyond yourself.

But let's take another example. Have you observed how market parties standardized electric chargers for mobile phones so we didn't need all these variants lying around everywhere contributing to the waste problem? Me neither! Sometimes someone has to step in to organize things that market parties feel no urge to organize.

I'm not sure how this applies to education.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But some posts in this thread suggested to me the topic was not just on education but an the question if free market is all it takes. It's pretty easy to see however, at least in my country, how the unwillingness of private schools to comply to standardized minimum education levels harms society as a whole. Several schools in the Netherlands (mostly Muslim schools) are now on the black list. When the state doesn't intervene, these are the seeds of disruption in society.

[Meatball]

There's already a wide range of quality under the banner of public schools. We all know that not all public high schools are made equal.

I, for one, think it might be better if post-secondary institutions or employers used a variety of independantly issued aptitude testing, which would in turn keep schools quality up. If a religious school can't reliably train children to pass a "MeatballCo. National Physical Sciences Test" then don't send your child there if you want him to excel in science. Provided some some of accountability and transparency on the side of the schools was enforced, I don't see this being a problem.

If it's more important for a parent to send their child to a religious muslim school than a school strong in science, I think they have that right. Employers don't have to hire those kids. Universities don't have to accept them. The market would take care of itself.

I think in general, the government should be enforcing things like accountability and transparency to prevent fraud on the small and large scale. Once we have mechanisms to 'keep everybody honest' I think the free market would regulate itself, in nearly all industries, wonderfully.

[Purple Rabbit]

The market would take care of itself.

That's the whole point. Just like it took care of preventing that banking crisis, you mean.
There's no coherence in the society you picture. None for all, all for me.
Those kids leaving school without education in your world nowhere have the right to chose for themselves. You are totally ignorant of the fact that some people can not (anymore/yet) make reasoned decisions for themselves.

And if you make the choice your way, be consistent: crime will regulate itself.

[Meatball]

You are totally ignorant of the fact that some people can not (anymore/yet) make reasoned decisions for themselves.

I guess I just don't think it's within the government's responsibility to reason for people.

You think children should choose their own schools? Do you really think a 5 year old child can choose his education under any system? Do you not think a grown adult should choose his child's education? A politician should do this instead?

We should trust people to make their own decisions. It doesn't matter if they make shitty decisions. They deserve the freedom to make mistakes.

[Purple Rabbit]

You think children should choose their own schools?

No. But would you not have a fair chance at a proper education, even when you were born in a muslim family?

Do you really think a 5 year old child can choose his education under any system?

No, and I did not suggest that. I suggested there is a responsibilty of society as a whole to ensure basic opportunities for all members of society. As a consequence society should put in place basic structures and monitoring. You seem to assume a perfect dichotomy and conflict of interests between society and the individual. But imo society is the collective of individuals, the individuals make the choices together aiming at maximizing opportunities from who all can benefit, it's like symbiosis not like permanent war.
Also, if it's all that important to choose the right religion and to choose it independently as an individual then why mark the children before they are able to make free indepedent decisions. That's not providing opportunity.

Do you not think a grown adult should choose his child's education?

Do you really mean that the freedom you're talking about entails that the all-important choice about religion is not a choice of you but of your parents?

A politician should do this instead?

No. The kid should be given the opportunity to make a free choice when he can. That means giving him
a broad view on all aspect of religion without the indoctrination part.

We should trust people to make their own decisions. It doesn't matter if they make shitty decisions. They deserve the freedom to make mistakes.

In no time the world would be ruled by morons. Is this even feasible in traffic:

Man crashes into people on the pavement and kills several in the act.
Man: oops, I made a shitty decision there
Police: That's allright man, it's your decision, that's what counts. Those people evidently chose to be there themselves when you scooped them.

[Tiberius]

Oh come on Purple Rabbit, an intelligent person such as you should know better. Nobody here is supporting (or even mentioned) privatizing police forces, or anything related to your strawman example.

As MeatBall (I think) already said, governments should make the rules, but they shouldn't tell people how to live their own lives. It's a balance between personal freedom, and when someone's personal freedom affects that of another.

An example would be in the legalisation of all drugs. It should be a right to do whatever you want to your body, but if someone thinks they can get high and start driving a car, they are going against the law. Personal freedoms are good when you are at home, or with friends in a safe environment. They are not, however, above the law.

[Purple Rabbit]

Oh come on Purple Rabbit, an intelligent person such as you should know better. Nobody here is supporting (or even mentioned) privatizing police forces, or anything related to your strawman example.

Why not? What's your criterion in this? Why is your market not totally free so everybody can make his own shitty decisions.

As MeatBall (I think) already said, governments should make the rules, but they shouldn't tell people how to live their own lives. It's a balance between personal freedom, and when someone's personal freedom affects that of another.

I agree. But you leave out the cases in which free choice can not yet or no longer fully be excercised.

An example would be in the legalisation of all drugs. It should be a right to do whatever you want to your body, but if someone thinks they can get high and start driving a car, they are going against the law. Personal freedoms are good when you are at home, or with friends in a safe environment. They are not, however, above the law.

OK. Since you provide no age limit with that, at what age can free choice on this be consumed?

[fr0d0]

I think in general, the government should be enforcing things like accountability and transparency to prevent fraud on the small and large scale. Once we have mechanisms to 'keep everybody honest' I think the free market would regulate itself, in nearly all industries, wonderfully.

The government is actually promoting the interests of profit in education which has been sucked in and is spewing out ever narrowing standards.

I think what Rabbit is getting at is that a widely imposed sensible system is better in every way than individual choice.

We just need to find a way to keep the capitalist assholes out of the equation.

[Tiberius]

Why not? What's your criterion in this? Why is your market not totally free so everybody can make his own shitty decisions.

My criteria is the same as most Libertarians. Governments are there to protect the people, to serve the people. Emergency services are there to protect and serve, and they should be government controlled. As I already said, the laws are made by the government, and it makes perfect sense to have a police force that works for the government to uphold those laws.

A dose of common sense needs to be in place as well. Can you imagine what would happen if the police was privatized? Companies like Google and Microsoft could go around throwing people in their own jails for any reason.

I agree. But you leave out the cases in which free choice can not yet or no longer fully be excercised.

How do you mean?

OK. Since you provide no age limit with that, at what age can free choice on this be consumed?

I think these restrictions should be the same age as the age of voting. I'd like to see that set at 18, since this is generally an age at which people are mature enough to make rational decisions, and the age at which people are considered "adults" (at least where I come from).

This goes for smoking, drinking, driving, etc.