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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 5:43 pm
(May 31, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 9:52 am)Chad32 Wrote: We use the example of a 2 year old because, if the Eden story was taken literally, then Adam and Even had no concept of good and evil/right and wrong at that point. They had no concept of death either, so saying "you'll die if you do this" is meaningless. A 16 year old has grown, and learned right from wrong, by that time, and likely understands what death is.
First of all Adam was hanging out at a minimum of around 1000 years before Eve was even created or close to 2000 years max .. are you going to sit here and say that 16 years trumps 1000?
Also they clearly knew right from wrong seeing how they hid from God, why would you hide if you didn't know you did anything wrong?
(May 31, 2017 at 9:52 am)Chad32 Wrote: That "simple" way you mean is what? Jesus dying? Actually it's kind of convoluted, came long after he tried and failed other ways to solve the problem, and shows he still doesn't know how to solve an issue without killing someone. Jahova/Yahweh never learned, or grew, from his experience, so why should we worship it?
The only way that you need be concerned about is to repent and be baptized.
Just like Naaman in the Old Testament seeking a cure for leprosy was told to go dip himself 7 times in the Jordan river, but those instructions seemed ridiculous, because in his mind, there were better rivers to utilize than the Jordan.
Why are you so concerned with how God chose to remit sin? Just be content that there is a simple way for your sin to be remitted.
Where did you get the idea of 1000 years? A day was not 1000 years, given that we don't have the sabbath every 7000 years. We have it every week. And nobody every said Adam was several thousand years old when he died. Sure they apparently knew right from wrong, after they ate the apple that gave them the ability. Though one wonders, if them being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place. We don't let kids run around butt naked until they decide they don't want to be naked anymore.
The how is as or more important than the what. Why do I care how? Because if I believe I'm a bad person, murdering an innocent person isn't going to make me a better person. What good does it do to give us a way, if that way is obviously immoral? Why do we want to be near a guy that does horrible things to people?
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 5:54 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 6:07 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(May 31, 2017 at 5:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: First of all Adam was hanging out at a minimum of around 1000 years before Eve was even created or close to 2000 years max .. are you going to sit here and say that 16 years trumps 1000?
Also they clearly knew right from wrong seeing how they hid from God, why would you hide if you didn't know you did anything wrong?
The only way that you need be concerned about is to repent and be baptized.
Just like Naaman in the Old Testament seeking a cure for leprosy was told to go dip himself 7 times in the Jordan river, but those instructions seemed ridiculous, because in his mind, there were better rivers to utilize than the Jordan.
Why are you so concerned with how God chose to remit sin? Just be content that there is a simple way for your sin to be remitted.
Where did you get the idea of 1000 years? A day was not 1000 years, given that we don't have the sabbath every 7000 years. We have it every week. And nobody every said Adam was several thousand years old when he died. Sure they apparently knew right from wrong, after they ate the apple that gave them the ability. Though one wonders, if them being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place. We don't let kids run around butt naked until they decide they don't want to be naked anymore. *emphasis mine*
I thought you guys claimed to know the bible better than thiests...
Quote:For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. - Psalm 90:4
Quote:But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day - 2 Peter 3:8
God's "day" and man's "day" are two completely different things, didn't anyone tell you that time is relative?
Also God told Adam the DAY he ate of the tree that DAY he would die. Adam lived to be 930 years old, which falls within a day in relation to God.
Adam was created on the sixth day (doesn't say at what point) and God rested on the seventh. So just going by the seventh day, Adam was here at minimum 1000 years before Eve
(May 31, 2017 at 5:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The how is as or more important than the what. Why do I care how? Because if I believe I'm a bad person, murdering an innocent person isn't going to make me a better person. What good does it do to give us a way, if that way is obviously immoral? Why do we want to be near a guy that does horrible things to people?
Ah so your of the opinion that "vicarious redemption" is immoral?
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm
(May 31, 2017 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 5:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Where did you get the idea of 1000 years? A day was not 1000 years, given that we don't have the sabbath every 7000 years. We have it every week. And nobody every said Adam was several thousand years old when he died. Sure they apparently knew right from wrong, after they ate the apple that gave them the ability. Though one wonders, if them being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place. We don't let kids run around butt naked until they decide they don't want to be naked anymore. *emphasis mine*
I thought you guys claimed to know the bible better than thiests...
Quote:For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. - Psalm 90:4
Quote:But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day - 2 Peter 3:8
God's "day" and man's "day" are two completely different things, didn't anyone tell you that time is relative?
Also God told Adam the DAY he ate of the tree that DAY he would die. Adam lived to be 930 years old, which falls within one day in relation to God.
(May 31, 2017 at 5:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The how is as or more important than the what. Why do I care how? Because if I believe I'm a bad person, murdering an innocent person isn't going to make me a better person. What good does it do to give us a way, if that way is obviously immoral? Why do we want to be near a guy that does horrible things to people?
Ah so your of the opinion that "vicarious redemption" is immoral?
Yes, I know about that verse, and it's obviously wrong, for the reasons I stated. Sorry if him living 930 years after eating the fruit makes Yahweh a liar, but that's not my problem.
Most people's opinion, yeah. Killing something good and innocent does not make the world a better place. It doesn't absolve you of sin, because what's absolving your crime of murder? It's counterproductive, and solves nothing.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 6:46 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 6:47 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Yes, I know about that verse, and it's obviously wrong, for the reasons I stated. Wait, the verse is obviously wrong because you say so? So were just going to ignore what the Bible says and make up our own narrative?
(May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Sorry if him living 930 years after eating the fruit makes Yahweh a liar, but that's not my problem.
Not if God's day = 1000 years, like the Bible clearly states it does.
(May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Most people's opinion, yeah. Killing something good and innocent does not make the world a better place. It doesn't absolve you of sin, because what's absolving your crime of murder? It's counterproductive, and solves nothing. Killing something in order to live is a principle you live by on a daily basis...
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:02 pm
Honestly .... the older I get the more I just feel like anyone who believes in God as an adult just has the mind of a fucking child when it comes to one specific area of their life. It's exactly like a child with an imaginary friend.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:05 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 31, 2017 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Sorry if him living 930 years after eating the fruit makes Yahweh a liar, but that's not my problem.
Not if God's day = 1000 years, like the Bible clearly states it does. Interesting, so, does that mean that creation happened in..what, 6k years..give or take a thousand years of rest? That's a testable proposition.
Quote: (May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Most people's opinion, yeah. Killing something good and innocent does not make the world a better place. It doesn't absolve you of sin, because what's absolving your crime of murder? It's counterproductive, and solves nothing.
Killing something in order to live is a principle you live by on a daily basis... Are you trying to tell us that Chad is a hypocrite, or that it's not bad™? I wonder, did god have to kill us to live, is he limited, in that same way that he limited us with respect to other life? That might explain all the blood sacrifice.......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 7:11 pm by Chad32.)
(May 31, 2017 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Yes, I know about that verse, and it's obviously wrong, for the reasons I stated. Wait, the verse is obviously wrong because you say so? So were just going to ignore what the Bible says and make up our own narrative?
(May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Sorry if him living 930 years after eating the fruit makes Yahweh a liar, but that's not my problem.
Not if God's day = 1000 years, like the Bible clearly states it does.
(May 31, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Most people's opinion, yeah. Killing something good and innocent does not make the world a better place. It doesn't absolve you of sin, because what's absolving your crime of murder? It's counterproductive, and solves nothing. Killing something in order to live is a principle you live by on a daily basis...
No, I say it's obviously wrong, because the story doesn't act that way. It acts like a day is a day. I'm not pulling this out of my ass. Just because someone wrote about god's day being a thousand years, thousands of years after the original story of Eden, doesn't make it true. It's just some christian trying to make sense of a plothole in the story in a jewish holy book.
Eating meat for sustenance is different from scapegoating your problems with a human sacrifice. I' not saying you should never kill something. I' just saying murdering someone doesn't make your past crimes go away.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:11 pm
Hey hey, we just so happen to have a current thread for that!
https://atheistforums.org/thread-48656-page-24.html
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:18 pm
(May 31, 2017 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I thought you guys claimed to know the bible better than thiests...
I don't know about theists in general, but it seems I know it better than you. Adam and Eve hid after they ate the fruit, gaining the knowledge of good and evil, not before. The whole point of the story is that they were innocent before they ate the fruit, not even ashamed of being naked. Once they ate it they covered themselves and when they heard God pretending to look for them, they panicked and hid because now they knew what they had done was wrong.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:33 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 7:33 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Wait, the verse is obviously wrong because you say so? So were just going to ignore what the Bible says and make up our own narrative?
Not if God's day = 1000 years, like the Bible clearly states it does.
Killing something in order to live is a principle you live by on a daily basis...
No, I say it's obviously wrong, because the story doesn't act that way. It acts like a day is a day. I'm not pulling this out of my ass.
Just because someone wrote about god's day being a thousand years, thousands of years after the original story of Eden, doesn't make it true. It's just some christian trying to make sense of a plothole in the story in a jewish holy book. *emphasis mine*
Except that the first place where it mentions specifically that 1 of Gods days = 1000 years is in Psalms, a Jewish holy book...
Not to mention I just told you right from the story of Eden that Adam was told he'd die within a day, he lived to be 930 which is within 1 day according to God's timeline.
Time is relative, God counts time differently from man.
(May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Eating meat for sustenance is different from scapegoating your problems with a human sacrifice. I' not saying you should never kill something. I' just saying murdering someone doesn't make your past crimes go away.
Where in the bible does it state that murdering someone makes your past crimes go away?
The wages of sin is death, Christ sacrificed himself to rid the world of sin so that you may live. It's the same principal you live by on a daily basis, something has to die in order to sustain life.
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