What are your thoughts on fat acceptance?

[Isis]

I stand by almost everything I said (except the tax rates, which was a little extreme, I typed it while pissed off), junk food should be taxed like cigarettes. Fat people are still a drain on the NHS, at least smokers pay their fair share towards the health system. Maybe age restrictions should be placed on unhealthy food as well to cut down on child obesity.

Do you think that eating junk food around people in pubs should be banned from smoking around people who don't eat junk food for exactly the same reason that smoking in pubs around people who don't smoke should be banned from pubs?

I personally think that there should be pubs for smokers. But I think pubs for junk food would be absurd.

See above.

[Edwardo Piet]

My argument about banning junk food from being eaten in pubs wasn't entirely serious

Oh. Lol. Well in that case I can actually buy the argument Paulpablo made about junk food causing the NHS to get clogged up with obesity-related problems. In that case I think junk food should be taxed but far far less than cigarettes. Because not only do cigarettes also cause problems that clog up the NHS but it's also far far more addictive than junk food and it damages people in the area who don't even wish to smoke. And it doesn't have low nutrition, it has zero nutrition. It's a poison not a food. Even alcohol has more nutrition than smoke. And alcohol is terrible at quenching one's thirst if oneself is thirsty but it certainly does a better job than not hydrating at all. Whereas all smoking does is damage a person and cause them to get addicted to continue doing it... and damages others around too.

So I think cigarettes should still be taxed and perhaps junk food should be taxed at a much lower rate. I think cigarettes should still be either banned from all pubs or there should be smokers pubs. I don't think junk food should be banned from pubs.

Sorry for so much vitriol. You know I consider you a friend. I sometimes get passionately disagreeable like this when I disagree about something and I'm passionate about my opinions. I just think everyone should do whatever they want to their bodies as long as they're not harming anyone else and smokers very much harm other people around them but obese people don't.

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I know an obese woman who's been told by her doctors she will be in a wheel chair soon if she doesn't lose weight and she says she's willing to do anything to not get to that point but she's lying about that because she's still eating so much bread, bacon, chrisps and McDonald's and so on.

It doesn't mean she's lying. She can be perfectly honest about being willing to do anything but then struggle to will those things or control her urges or impulses.

If she told her doctor that she was cutting out all the junk food then she'd either be lying or deluded. But even then it wouldn't be a lie if she said it before she tried. That could just be her failing to keep her word... which isn't a lie it's a broken promise.

If she told her doctor she was going to cut down on junk food and then she started eating junk food and then she went and told her doctor she'd cut it out completely when she hadn't... that would be either an outright lie, a delusion or a failure of memory.

Then there's also the case that a lot of obese people only count some of the things they eat... it's like a confirmation bias thing. They excuse themselves... if they lie in that case they're lying to themselves but not necessarily to anyone else. And I don't think 'lying to oneself' is actually lying. I think it's possible to deceive yourself indirectly and that is known as 'lying to oneself'. But actual lying is very direct and it's simply stating things you don't believe. I don't think it's even logically possible to directly tell yourself something you don't believe and at the same time be directly deceived by it because that would require telling yourself things you don't believe and then believing it. Which is a contradiction.

I think it's possible to lie to yourself through omission. By not telling yourself things that you do believe in such a way that you forget about what you believe and you temporarily lose those beliefs... but that's very hard to do if you do believe it (it's hard to forget what you believe)...and then your mind will still drift and think about those things even if you don't want it to. And then you'll remember the truth.

[Isis]

No bother Hammy, I understand that certain topics can get heated at times.

[Edwardo Piet]

Never pissed at you. Frustrated at some of your opinions at worst. Was frustrated at worst. Was. At worst.

Because it seems we actually kind of agree lol.

[paulpablo]

Well let's accept that when people say willing to do anything it's an expression meaning they're willing to do a lot.
I'm sure she's not willing to kill her parents or whatever in order to lose weight.

So my point is that she's lying about how strong her intentions are if she's saying she's willing to do anything but not willing to give up unhealthy food.

If I was a lawyer trying to argue the case that she's even remotely trying to eat healthy I'd have a tough time.

I've beat a lot of vices and the two main ones I'm left with now are sugar and sex.

Because I know what my impulses are like, I know I'd be lying now if I told you I'm willing to do anything to be monogamous.

As I'm getting older I like the idea of monogamy more and more and it is getting more and more likely I'll end up settling down but it would still feel false if me to say I'm willing to do anything knowing what I'm like and how I've been in the past.
In my opinion if you're telling someone you're willing to do something yet your impulses later cause you to not do that thing then you've lied.

Like if a man says he's willing to be monogamous and he cheats then in my opinion he was still lying.

[mlmooney89]

I think that there is a difference between fat and obese. I think fat shaming someone that is just a little overweight is wrong but I also think we shouldn't say every body size is beautiful because after a certain point obesity is dangerous and shouldn't be loved. I agree with Pablo in that people can take both sides to extremes. We don't need everyone to be models. Telling people that the only way to be beautiful is to diet and have no fat is just as bad as telling a chubby person they aren't attractive.

Just chiming in on the taxing junk food thing the only problem I see with that is buying one candy bar a week isn't going to hurt you so we shouldn't tax it as unhealthy food. It's the ones that have no self control that cause it to be a problem. We shouldn't tax those with self control as if they were the ones without it. Cigarettes are bad for you regardless of how often you do it and they hurt others around them hence the high tax. I do agree that junk food should not be covered by the government (ie here in the states food stamps shouldn't be allowed to purchase candy)

I do know one family that was on food stamps and they didn't use all their funds so the lady went to the store and got an entire backpack full of candy bars. She then proceeded to hand them out to whomever wanted them and let her five kids gorge on the rest. That is a gross abuse of government money if you ask me.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah you're right junk food doesn't cause obesity in and of itself so whilst there is a very very loose-argument for taxing junk food at very very low prices... even that seems a little absurd.

@ Pablo

Yes saying you're willing to do everything does at the very least mean willing to do a lot. But you can say you're willing to do a lot and mean it and believe it so when you fail to follow through... even repeatedly... that doesn't mean you're lying.

Keep in mind that...



...and you can intend one thing but fail to be motivated or be motivated by something else. Intentions don't always lead to motives.

[Mister Agenda]

I'd love to hear an example of someone who got fat or stayed fat because of 'fat acceptance'. Americans didn't suddenly become fat because it became acceptable. It's becoming acceptable because so many Americans (with Europeans following suit, especially in the UK) are fat now that accepting it is realistic. The AMA mistakenly recommending everyone to limit their fat intake which resulted in starchy foods being considered 'heart healthy' and food companies marketing on that had a lot more to do with it, IMHO.

[mlmooney89]

They don't get fat because of the acceptance they just don't try and get healthy because they are ok with how they look. At least there are girls on my Facebook that are always taking selfies with captions that talk about guys liking curves, thick is beautiful, I like myself the way I am, etc. These girls are not just thick though...

[Edwardo Piet]

I believe obesity is largely genetic. Although I believe genetic obesity just means people have to work extra hard to lose the weight.

My brother used to eat the same foods as me and the same amount of foods as me... when we were kids. I was super skinny and he became more and more overweight and as an adult he became 245 pounds in weight.

Even when he was by then eating less food and healthier food than me as he was concerned about his weight.

And I also got far less exercise than him. And less fresh air. He went out a lot and ate healthy and I stayed indoors eating junk food and playing video games. The only excercise I got was my fast typing. And I doubt hand exercise was burning that many calories.

Now he's my weight and build (except he's taller). But he had to work super hard. He weight lifted, he did press ups, he went on regular runs, and he had a regularly healthy diet. I don't have to do any of that and I maintain the same weight.

So there's definitely a large genetic element to obesity. My dad was more like my brother in those terms... he had to work extra hard to lose weight. Whereas my mom is more like me. So, physically, when it comes to metabolism or any other genetic elements related to weight... it looks like my brother got an unlucky mix of genes that I didn't.

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They don't get fat because of the acceptance they just don't try and get healthy because they are ok with how they look. At least there are girls on my Facebook that are always taking selfies with captions that talk about guys liking curves, thick is beautiful, I like myself the way I am, etc.  These girls are not just thick though...

They're thick in two senses for being proud of their obesity! Hehe.