"Cultural Appropriation"

[vorlon13]

I have no problem with black men wearing kilts.
I've been a long time fan of the Scotty Skirt.
They can wear sporrans too . . . .

I vote we voluntarily dis-appropriate the kilt just so we don't have to listen to vorlon talk about anal sex yet again!  We should also start a thread about SPECIES appropriation, specifically stealing the sexual practices of bears.  Stop it!  

there are so very, very many posts here with sexual innuendo just dripping from them


it is truly disturbing

[bennyboy]

There is no "new facism of the left" Benny.  That's just a shiny that bigots are hoping will distract people long enough for them to get some more genteel bigotry done.  It's going to work, it already works, it always worked.

Not only is there a fascism of the left, but you are right now demonstrating the mechanism by which fascism is executed in the population: agree with us, or be demonized with a nasty label.  Are you sure you only want to imply that I'm a bigot?  Or do you want to throw in "witch" or "heretic" as well?

[The Grand Nudger]

There is no "new facism of the left" Benny.  That's just a shiny that bigots are hoping will distract people long enough for them to get some more genteel bigotry done.  It's going to work, it already works, it always worked.

Not only is there a fascism of the left, but you are right now demonstrating the mechanism by which fascism is executed in the population: agree with us, or be demonized with a nasty label.  Are you sure you only want to imply that I'm a bigot?  Or do you want to throw in "witch" or "heretic" as well?

Who's being dehumanized, and by whom?  Are you a dirty bigot looking to do genteel racism?  Did I, or "the left" say you were?  Do I or "the left" force bigots to attempt genteel racism?

No, and no. I'm just pointing out that it works, historically.

[bennyboy]

I didn't say "dehumanized," at least in that post. I said, "demonized," as in the conditional threat of being labeled by a term that is considered toxic in the social climate.

As for history-- when ANY position becomes so entrenched that it is considered intrinsically correct, and no longer admits to argumentation or discussion, then I'd say this: if the dividing line is genetic, or racial, or nationalistic, then you are in fact looking at a fascist position.

And this is my problem with the left now-- it's not really people with shared values and a real concern for liberty and the betterment of the society as a whole. It's a group that uses certain keywords and positions as tokens of membership, and admits absolutely NO argument or discussion about any of the positions it holds.

I think the real left is about inclusion, about peace, about a fair chance for everyone to seek happiness in life, about goodwill among fellow man, and so on. But I find the verbal left now to be highly hostile, intolerant, prejudiced, and hypocritical-- WHILE STILL THINKING that they are fighting for something good. That's fascism at its best.

[The Grand Nudger]

I didn't say "dehumanized," at least in that post.  I said, "demonized," as in the conditional threat of being labeled by a term that is considered toxic in the social climate.

My bad, seem like functional equivalents though, eh?  

As for history-- when ANY position becomes so entrenched that it is considered intrinsically correct, and no longer admits to argumentation or discussion, then I'd say this: if the dividing line is genetic, or racial, or nationalistic, then you are in fact looking at a fascist position.

The position that cultural appropriation occurred is entrenched in fact.  We've got a bunch of usual suspects here (and online, and on the teevees) who feel compelled to be clowns about it...but I actually reckon that you;re not one of them, Benny, lol.  I'm just suggesting that you might have been had, by them.

And this is my problem with the left now-- it's not really people with shared values and a real concern for liberty and the betterment of the society as a whole.  It's a group that uses certain keywords and positions as tokens of membership, and admits absolutely NO argument or discussion about any of the positions it holds.

Okay.

I think the real left is about inclusion, about peace, about a fair chance for everyone to seek happiness in life, about goodwill among fellow man, and so on.  But I find the verbal left now to be highly hostile, intolerant, prejudiced, and hypocritical-- WHILE STILL THINKING that they are fighting for something good.  That's fascism at its best.

If refusing to say nice things to or about bigots and the genteel racism they do is facism, you can hand me my arm band.

/ shrugs

[bennyboy]

The position that cultural appropriation occurred is entrenched in fact.  We've got a bunch of usual suspects here (and online, and on the teevees) who feel compelled to be clowns about it...but I actually reckon that you;re not one of them, Benny, lol.  I'm just suggesting that you might have been had, by them.

The problem isn't so much the idea-- of cultural appropriation or anything else. It's watching good positions become dogmatized and then turned against the same liberties they were originally meant to espouse that is the problem.

If refusing to say nice things to or about bigots and the genteel racism they do is facism, you can hand me my arm band.

Ironically, the definition of bigotry is essentially the same one I give for fascism: "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions." My view is that white, heterosexual bigotry is now being matched by black, LBGTQ bigotry. I fully support and embrace every black person's efforts to find happiness and betterment in life. I fully support people in their efforts to define various parts of their humanity, including their sexuality or their gender roles. However, making their lives and views the new "right. . . just fucking right so shut up about it" isn't the right path, IMO.

As for me not being a bigot-- I always just thought bigot meant "racist" until I just looked it up. But I AM racist, and sexist, and homophobe, and all those other things to various degrees. I know that many of the things I think are true are expressly racist-- like, I think black people on the whole are naturally more athletically gifted than white people are, and that Asians really are naturally bright. I find it gross when two bearded men kiss in public; frankly, it makes me kind of queasy. And yet-- I would fight to the death for a black kid who wants to study math, or an Asian with athletic dreams, or for the gay guys, to follow their own definitions of life and liberty.

I would also fight to the death for my right to TALK about any of those things, or anything else, if I felt I had something others should consider. I'd rather be free than right, because I know for sure what freedom is, and I don't pretend to know what is "right."

[The Grand Nudger]

The position that cultural appropriation occurred is entrenched in fact.  We've got a bunch of usual suspects here (and online, and on the teevees) who feel compelled to be clowns about it...but I actually reckon that you;re not one of them, Benny, lol.  I'm just suggesting that you might have been had, by them.

The problem isn't so much the idea-- of cultural appropriation or anything else.  It's watching good positions become dogmatized and then turned against the same liberties they were originally meant to espouse that is the problem.

That may not be the problem for you...but remember where I;m from.  Remember where I live.  The very idea is a problem to the bigots round hur.  That's why I have no patience for them.  I don't play the "I'm not a bigot I just play one on tv" game where people read from the bigots script and then express shock and surprise that anyone might think they were a bigot after having done so.    

Ironically, the definition of bigotry is essentially the same one I give for fascism: "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."  My view is that white, heterosexual bigotry is now being matched by black, LBGTQ bigotry.

If you say so....but I'd suggest that you might have been sourcing your news from bigots to reach that conclusion. It wopuld be an impressive feat if the minority oppressed somehow managed to match the majority oppressors for bigotry. That would have been a neat trick for the oppressed to have had up their sleeve throughout history. To be able to match the man who holds the levers of control.

I fully support and embrace every black person's efforts to find happiness and betterment in life.  I fully support people in their efforts to define various parts of their humanity, including their sexuality or their gender roles.  However, making their lives and views the new "right. . . just fucking right so shut up about it" isn't the right path, IMO.

Not sure what that has to do with bigots trying to do genteel racism to people by pretending that cultural appropriation didn;t happen or was a good thing because we got stuff.

As for me not being a bigot-- I always just thought bigot meant "racist" until I just looked it up.  But I AM racist, and sexist, and homophobe, and all those other things to various degrees.  I know that many of the things I think are true are expressly racist-- like, I think black people on the whole are naturally more athletically gifted than white people are, and that Asians really are naturally bright.

Two examples of racism that wouldn't draw much ire over here, even from blacks or asians.  Meanwhile, some people do manage to draw the ire.  perhaps it;s because their racism is less benign and more overt than your own?  Or, you know....theyre just bigoty bigots bigoted against white heteros.  

I find it gross when two bearded men kiss in public; frankly, it makes me kind of queasy.  And yet-- I would fight to the death for a black kid who wants to study math, or an Asian with athletic dreams, or for the gay guys, to follow their own definitions of life and liberty.

Good.  The usual suspects wouldn't.  They don't care. Racial apathy.

I would also fight to the death for my right to TALK about any of those things, or anything else, if I felt I had something others should consider.  I'd rather be free than right, because I know for sure what freedom is, and I don't pretend to know what is "right."

-and here you are talking...and here they are talking.  Bigots don't have the right not to be talked back to. They don;t have any right to not be called bigots, and they don't actually have a right to do genteel racism (though they always seem to think they do..you call them out on it and they yap endlessly about -their- rights...the irony obviously escapes them). That's not what american freedom is.

[bennyboy]

If you say so....but I'd suggest that you might have been sourcing your news from bigots to reach that conclusion.  It wopuld be an impressive feat if the minority oppressed somehow managed to match the majority oppressors for bigotry.  That would have been a neat trick for the oppressed to have had up their sleeve throughout history.  To be able to match the man who holds the levers of control.  

No doubt, but to what degree am I my brother's keeper. Should I, knowing other white people's bigotry, attempt to counterbalance by being a shining beacon of virtue? The kind of bigotry you are talking about is antithetical to me, so this plural "we" stuff bothers me. "We" didn't rape and pillage early native populations-- some fuckers from England did that, and some assholes who aren't of my family did that recently. Nobody I know, so far as I know, has really done anybody any serious wrong. On what basis am I meant to participate in the atonement process?

Not sure what that has to do with bigots trying to do genteel racism to people by pretending that cultural appropriation didn;t happen or was a good thing because we got stuff.

Fair enough. For sure saying "We did these here black folk a big favor by taking them away from their savage upbringing and teaching them the word of God" doesn't sit well with me. . . and I've definitely heard that logic applied to natives. (Keep in mind that I come from a small town near Vancouver, which has a pretty substantial native population, and I think it had literally only one or two black families in the whole town).

Two examples of racism that wouldn't draw much ire over here, even from blacks or asians.  Meanwhile, some people do manage to draw the ire.  perhaps it;s because their racism is less benign and more overt than your own?  Or, you know....theyre just bigoty bigots bigoted against white heteros.  

Well, I look to evolution for a narrative as to why different people might have turned out differently. The hardcore bigots you're talking about ONLY EVER talk about evolution in the sense that "survival of the fittest" means he who's doing well, is right to do so at others' expense.

-and here you are talking...and here they are talking.  Bigots don't have the right not to be talked back to.  They don;t have any right to not be called bigots, and they don't actually have a right to do genteel racism (though they always seem to think they do..you call them out on it and they yap endlessly about -their- rights...the irony obviously escapes them).  That's not what american freedom is.

Okay it's nice that you and I seem to be pretty much seeing eye to eye. However, I've definitely been on the end of the hate stick for discussing much the same things, in much the same way, with left-leaning people. And it seems to me that these days things are going more toward immoderation, and irreconcilable differences, than toward understanding and mutual tolerance.

To be honest, I've met straight-up racists-- like KKK level-- who I liked for their honesty; they think races should separate, and they don't want their communities to change, and while I totally disagree with them, I can see that they are sincerely expressing their ideas and opinions. And I've met Black Lives Matter people who I've disliked because they seem manipulative, insincere, and opportunistic. Some of those fuckers will shut down a goddamned university if they think it will get them laid, methinks.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you say so....but I'd suggest that you might have been sourcing your news from bigots to reach that conclusion.  It wopuld be an impressive feat if the minority oppressed somehow managed to match the majority oppressors for bigotry.  That would have been a neat trick for the oppressed to have had up their sleeve throughout history.  To be able to match the man who holds the levers of control.  

No doubt, but to what degree am I my brother's keeper.  Should I, knowing other white people's bigotry, attempt to counterbalance by being a shining beacon of virtue?  The kind of bigotry you are talking about is antithetical to me, so this plural "we" stuff bothers me.  "We" didn't rape and pillage early native populations-- some fuckers from England did that, and some assholes who aren't of my family did that recently.  Nobody I know, so far as I know, has really done anybody any serious wrong.  On what basis am I meant to participate in the atonement process?

OFC you're your brothers keeper.  We all are.  But no, knowing bigotry both present and past...you don't have to be a shining beacon of virtue...but you can probably manage not to be bigot.  "We" did, Benny..there's no point in trying to distance yourself from your own cultures history.  Yes, I know you didn't do it.  Neither did I.  That doesn't change the fact that it was done and that "we"..yes, you and and I, are the inheritors of that legacy.  

What atonement process?  There will be no acres, no mules, and no royalty checks.  

Fair enough.  For sure saying "We did these here black folk a big favor by taking them away from their savage upbringing and teaching them the word of God" doesn't sit well with me. . . and I've definitely heard that logic applied to natives.  (Keep in mind that I come from a small town near Vancouver, which has a pretty substantial native population, and I think it had literally only one or two black families in the whole town).

How about "well sure we did that cultural appropriation but look at all the nice stuff we got from it!"  How does that sit?  "Is cultural appropriation really a bad thing?"  How about that?  Hey, here's another one "Black Lives Matter". Still sitting comfortably?

Well, I look to evolution for a narrative as to why different people might have turned out differently.  The hardcore bigots you're talking about ONLY EVER talk about evolution in the sense that "survival of the fittest" means he who's doing well, is right to do so at others' expense.

I;m sure that there have been plenty of hardcore bigots who thought that.  The worst bigotry, though, -at least here-....is the stuff that's as wholesome as granny and familiar as apple pie.  Nothing to do with "survival of the fittest".  

Okay it's nice that you and I seem to be pretty much seeing eye to eye.  However, I've definitely been on the end of the hate stick for discussing much the same things, in much the same way, with left-leaning people.  And it seems to me that these days things are going more toward immoderation, and irreconcilable differences, than toward understanding and mutual tolerance.

If differences are irreconcilable they're irreconcilable.  Personally, I think that the bigots should break away from my country and start their own.  Prickistan, where everyone hates everyone else equally.  We have no more time for that, here, in the US...we already wasted the majority of our history on it.

To be honest, I've met straight-up racists-- like KKK level-- who I liked for their honesty; they think races should separate, and they don't want their communities to change, and while I totally disagree with them, I can see that they are sincerely expressing their ideas and opinions.

Sincerely expressed bigotry is still bigotry.  I know a guy like that too, in fact I was raised by a guy like that.  Love him to death, he's still a bigot- the bigotyest bigot I've ever met in my life and I've met alot of bigots, lol.

And I've met Black Lives Matter people who I've disliked because they seem manipulative, insincere, and opportunistic.  Some of those fuckers will shut down a goddamned university if they think it will get them laid, methinks.

The subject of cultural appropriation -and- blm is probably a little more salient than whom you, Benny, like and don't like.  There you are, showing that you clearly are the inheritor of our legacy, by continuing to express the dismissive flippancy that was required in order to -create- and now maintain that history.  By perpetuating the narrative of character assassination through sex seeking, and by questioning their sincerity while commenting on the sincerity..of the fucking KKK rep, in wherever you're from.

Imagine yourself to be an outsider.  If you saw that a person kept coming down on the side of the bigots..in familiar bigot ways...then you're going to start wondering whether or not they're a bigot...aren't you?  

An outsider, wont, for example..know you like I know you, they won't know that you're a decent person who -maybe- just expresses their cultures bigoted legacy on accident (I guess?), sometimes.  They probably won't think that you've been getting your news from bigots on accident.  In fact, they probably wouldn't think that you accidentally reaffirm those narratives on accident, at all.  

That you like some racist shitheel, and don't like some BLM protester...has absolutely nothing to do with cultural appropriation not being a thing, a bad thing, any new facism from the left, or any comparative assessment of the virtue of either person or group. Your buddy in the KKK is wrong, end of. BLM, not so much. If you're placing the two side by side....and you did (why, lol?)...then I'm going to whitegenocide the KKK guys culture into oblivion, just like he's worried about..because his is a hateful culture that is anathema to american culture. It doesn't belong here, it belongs in the past - and if we could just put it in the fucking past..then maybe we wouldn't have to keep answering for that past in the present...and isn't that the point of cultural appropriation and BLM in the first place...when you think about it?

Unfortunately, "the left" - those fascists that have you so worried..they tell me I'm not allowed to call a bigot a bigot..because it's not polite, lol. Besides, they know bigots that they love, and it hurts their feelers that I call their mommy and daddy bigots. They blame my calling bigots bigots for their current powerlessness. They think we should include those bigots who would exclude the others, particularly if they do the genteel racism rather than lynchings. They think they need to pander to them. Some facists they turned out to be...such a dissappointment. I'm never going to be able to get the whitegenociding done without stormtroopers.

[Crunchy]

bennyboy Wrote:
Not only is there a fascism of the left, but you are right now demonstrating the mechanism by which fascism is executed in the population: agree with us, or be demonized with a nasty label.  Are you sure you only want to imply that I'm a bigot?  Or do you want to throw in "witch" or "heretic" as well?

Here is Maajid Nawaaz describing exactly what you are talking about.