"Cultural Appropriation"

[Shell B]

Is the internet the statehouse or the shithouse?  The seat of power, or the throne of crazy?

That doesn't matter. I wasn't commenting on the statehouse. When I say far left, I mean far left. I don't mean far left politicians only, though there are a fair share of stupids there too.

They are, actually, mutually exclusive things.  Fascism is a form of far right authoritarianism.  Something being far right excludes it from being far left.  

No, they aren't. Fascism is a form of government. Socialism is a philosophy that fits perfectly with fascism in the right circumstances, which have arisen multiple times in human history.

-not if one of them is on the left, and the other the right.  It would be a far left authoritarian socialist pointing a finger at a far right authoritarian fascist.  I'm neither, and neither are the people expressing the reality of cultural appropriation.  

I'll give that fascism is generally used to describe the right wing, but, again, the far left is indistinguishable from the far right, and thus makes leaps into fascism. I've never suggested you are either.

Cultural wealth -and- actual wealth, Shell.  When our black person hating and oppressing culture took black music..got themselves a white boy to sing it - and then profited from it, while denying the proceeds even to the people who wrote the damned songs and were still alive...that was a textbook example of cultural appropriation.  Great songs, sure, I enjoy them.  People are free to enjoy them..though, I imagine some of that enjoyment must have been lost on the people from whom they were stolen.......

That's stealing actual wealth, bruh. It's just fucking stealing. Wearing a headdress from a different culture that you purchase is cultural appropriation, but it isn't fucking stealing.

It;s really not, because the stuff we saved was convenient to our narrative of them at the time..and not representative of their culture.  We kept the bits that furthered our cause of dehumanization and oppression...and some of it, well...we just made it up.  Nothing about it was morally neutral.

"We" didn't do anything. I'm not 250 years old. If you have a cause of dehumanization and repression, fine. I don't. I just like the things I like.

Agreed, but people denying that cultural appropriation took place, or arguing that it was a good thing by reference to how it all ended up today (laying aside that it doesn't seem to have ended up all that well) or how we got cool stuff out of it, and by consitently ignoring that cultural appropriation was never about -them-..but what had been done to others........is not neutral. Go, enjoy our culture....all of it.  Just don;t stick your head in the sand when somebody brings up the shittier elements of how we got parts of that culture.  I'm absolutely certain that I don't need to tell you this....but I seem to have to explain it over and over to the usual suspects™.  

No one is sticking their heads in the sand about shitty events that took place in history here. They're saying that A. not all cultural appropriation has a history of rape and pillaging, so chill and B. people have every right to enjoy parts of any culture available to them. Multiculturalism is good, so chill.

Most of what -we- know now..yes, but not what african america knew at the end of bondage, Shell.  They only knew what we had told them.  They had not traveled...nor had we, in manufacturing that cultural identity.

Is that happening right now? No? So, it doesn't apply to us right now. When I listen to African music, I'm not doing anything wrong, and people who try to shame me for culturally appropriating can go suck a syphilitic dick.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is the internet the statehouse or the shithouse?  The seat of power, or the throne of crazy?

That doesn't matter. I wasn't commenting on the statehouse. When I say far left, I mean far left. I don't mean far left politicians only, though there are a fair share of stupids there too.

I think it does.  I don;t think that pointing a loon delivers on the promise of a "new leftist fascism".  I think it delivers a loon.  For us to be having anything even remotely resembling a grown up conversation about where fascism is and isn't we have to refer to the mainstream, or to the statehouse.  

Find me some good ole fascism from the american left?  Find me someone on the left who is espousing a far right authoritarian nationalism?

No, they aren't. Fascism is a form of government. Socialism is a philosophy that fits perfectly with fascism in the right circumstances, which have arisen multiple times in human history.

Take it up with the people who made the cross.  Socialism and fascism both share authoritarian tendencies - to say that fascism, thusly, "fits" with socialism is to say nothing of note while counting the hits, ignoring the misses, and reducing both words to meaninglessness.  Far left and far right authoritarianism are distinct....just like dogs and cats are distinct, even though they both have fur. 

I'll give that fascism is generally used to describe the right wing, but, again, the far left is indistinguishable from the far right, and thus makes leaps into fascism. I've never suggested you are either.

The usual suspects whining about cultural appropriation repeatedly imply or outright state that I am part of the new leftist facism because I call them bigots when they say bigoted shit.  I know that you don't..just trying to bring you up to speed on all that nuance.  That the authoritarian right and the authoritarian left can be indistinguishable is not an idicator of them both being fascist.  Those on the far authoritatian left..are authoritarian socialists.  Now, we can say that they sometimes do or says similar things.  Sure.  

But whose far authoritarian wing is currently in the statehouse, and who is currently referring to crazy shit random internet people say as though it were indicative of fascism on "the other side" as silly as that is on it;s face - we all get what they;re trying to say, I think?  

That's stealing actual wealth, bruh. It's just fucking stealing. Wearing a headdress from a different culture that you purchase is cultural appropriation, but it isn't fucking stealing.

Yes, some people think it's actually stealing..bruh.  Other people think it didn't happen™, or was a good thing)™.  No, wearing a headdress -isn't- cultural appropriation.  I don't know why I have to keep responding to things that aren't cultural appropriation as though they were, or as though I claimed they were?  That's part of the endless litany of batshit usual responses used to deny the reality or shittiness of cultural appropriation and bury it under a mountain of irrelevance.  

"We" didn't do anything. I'm not 250 years old. If you have a cause of dehumanization and repression, fine. I don't. I just like the things I like.

Oh good god Shell.  OFC you aren't 250 years old (though..it's still happening right now.....so.....?)..and I already addressed that exact sentiment...but you are a successor member of the culture which did the deed.  That cannot be changed by saying "Well, I didn't do it".  No, you didn't, but it was done, and it was a bad thing. 

No one is sticking their heads in the sand about shitty events that took place in history here. They're saying that A. not all cultural appropriation has a history of rape and pillaging, so chill and B. people have every right to enjoy parts of any culture available to them. Multiculturalism is good, so chill.

Shell, the usual suspects are very much sticking their heads in the and about thisa.  Not just here, on the internet, in crazy land..but also in the statehouse.  Still doing genteel racism, still supporting cultural appropriation while pretending that it didn't happen, and was a good thing, and all these liberals are fascists for pointing it out.

That..is what this entire thread...has been about.

Is that happening right now? No? So, it doesn't apply to us right now. When I listen to African music, I'm not doing anything wrong, and people who try to shame me for culturally appropriating can go suck a syphilitic dick.

Yes, it is happening right now..and very poigniently sao for the american fascists..... and you're still framing it as an us thing.  It's not.  It's not about us - you and me.  It's about what happened to other cultures when our forefathers saw fiot to do what they saw fit to do.  No, you're not doing anything wrong by listening to african music..nor is it cultural appropriation, and anyone who trieds to shame you is an idiot.  

However, once you stop -just- listening to african music..and argue that cultural appropriation didn't happen, or was a good thing, or support or defend it then or here and now..you are no longer just listening to african music..and probably should be ashamed.  This, is when the bigot word comes out.  It probably doesn't apply to you.  It absolutely does apply to the bigots of american fascism..who very much wish to be able to do genteel racism, who's only response to their bigotry is to insist that someone is bigoted against them at least as hard..so, it's gotta be 'kay.

[paulpablo]

A person from one culture using a headdress from another culture coincides perfectly with the text book definition of cultural apropriation.

Copyright infringement and earning money from stealing doesn't.

Also from what I can tell the people who wrote the songs for elvis, both black and white, were credited and payed for doing it.

[The Grand Nudger]

A person from one culture using a headdress from another culture coincides perfectly with the text book definition of cultural apropriation.

Copyright infringement and earning money from stealing doesn't.

Also from what I can tell the people who wrote the songs for elvis, both black and white, were credited and payed for doing it.

No, it doesn't...and I'm tired of explaining to the usual suspects why no amount of claiming that it does and talking about silly shit is even remotely addressing the reality of cultural appropriation.  

Well, as long as elvis's people payed one or two darkies, we're cool, right? Everyone's off the hook, then and now. Profiting from negroidal rhythms in the pre-civil rights era and Jim Crow south was totally kosher. What are those people™ complaining about?

[paulpablo]

A person from one culture using a headdress from another culture coincides perfectly with the text book definition of cultural apropriation.

Copyright infringement and earning money from stealing doesn't.

Also from what I can tell the people who wrote the songs for elvis, both black and white, were credited and payed for doing it.

No, it doesn't...and I'm tired of explaining to the usual suspects why no amount of claiming that it does and talking about silly shit is even remotely addressing the reality of cultural appropriation.  

Well, as long as elvis's people payed one or two darkies, we're cool, right? Everyone's off the hook, then and now.

It does.

Cultural apropriation is the use or adaption of elements of a culture by people of another culture.

If a headdress is an element of someone's culture it's textbook cultural apropriation for someone of another culture to use that headdress or adapt into their own style.

And yes as long as the people, darkies or whiteys, agreed to sell their songs and got paid and credited then we are very cool.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, it doesn't...and I'm tired of explaining to the usual suspects why no amount of claiming that it does and talking about silly shit is even remotely addressing the reality of cultural appropriation.  

Well, as long as elvis's people payed one or two darkies, we're cool, right?  Everyone's off the hook, then and now.

It does.

Cultural apropriation is the use or adaption of elements of a culture by people of another culture.

No, it's not.  That is an incomplete description of what is being referred to by the term cultural appropriation.  Don't take my word for it, go, read a book.  That you are attempting to leverage an incomplete description of cultural appropriation in order to minimize and de-legitimize it and anyone calling attention to it..not any cultural appropriating you have personally done...is what -you- should be ashamed of.

If a headdress is an element of someone's culture it's textbook cultural apropriation for someone of another culture to use that headdress or adapt into their own style.

And yes as long as the people, darkies or whiteys, agreed to sell their songs and got paid and credited then we are very cool.

Yep, every oppressed culture agreed to the cultural appropriation inflicted upon them by their oppressors.  Those collaborating individuals made it all okay. I mean, if they didn't maybe they should have sued for copyright or something.   

[Shell B]

I think it does.  I don;t think that pointing a loon delivers on the promise of a "new leftist fascism".  I think it delivers a loon.  For us to be having anything even remotely resembling a grown up conversation about where fascism is and isn't we have to refer to the mainstream, or to the statehouse.  

Find me some good ole fascism from the american left?  Find me someone on the left who is espousing a far right authoritarian nationalism?

You're starting to get catty. I am a grown-up. Therefore, grown-up conversation. Here, just have a wiki article. Left-wing fascism is real, whether you want it to be or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism

Take it up with the people who made the cross.  Socialism and fascism both share authoritarian tendencies - to say that fascism, thusly, "fits" with socialism is to say nothing of note while counting the hits, ignoring the misses, and reducing both words to meaninglessness.  Far left and far right authoritarianism are distinct....just like dogs and cats are distinct, even though they both have fur. 

I don't have to take it up with anybody. I can't help if you don't see it for what it is, but socialism and fascism have been bedmates for a very long time. That's coming from someone who loves bits of socialism. I just don't trust men to implement it.

The usual suspects whining about cultural appropriation repeatedly imply or outright state that I am part of the new leftist facism because I call them bigots when they say bigoted shit.  I know that you don't..just trying to bring you up to speed on all that nuance.  That the authoritarian right and the authoritarian left can be indistinguishable is not an idicator of them both being fascist.  Those on the far authoritatian left..are authoritarian socialists.  Now, we can say that they sometimes do or says similar things.  Sure.  

It is an indicator when the similar things they do are fascist. Moreover, the far left is not all socialist. I don't know why you keep saying that.

But whose far authoritarian wing is currently in the statehouse, and who is currently referring to crazy shit random internet people say as though it were indicative of fascism on "the other side" as silly as that is on it;s face - we all get what they;re trying to say, I think?  

Huh? Again, I don't care about who is in the statehouse as it pertains to this discussion. I am talking about very vocal individuals from both sides of the spectrum who are damaging our society. I never made any statements regarding who has more power right now. I've never made any statements saying all of the left wing or all of the right wing are fascist. They both have fascist elements. You cannot point to which radical left-winger I choose to refer to and say it invalidates my argument. As long as there is one, my statements remain true.

Yes, some people think it's actually stealing..bruh.

Well, the law does . . . bruh. It's not cultural appropriation. It's a fucking crime that's already condemned.

Other people think it didn't happen™, or was a good thing)™.

Okay, that's not the debate we're having. Don't care.

No, wearing a headdress -isn't- cultural appropriation.  I don't know why I have to keep responding to things that aren't cultural appropriation as though they were, or as though I claimed they were?

Because it is fucking cultural appropriation. It's the very thing the first respondent who decried cultural appropriation referred to. It's the fucking goalpost. You're talking about hate crimes, crimes against humanity, theft of intellectual property rights. These things already have names. If you think that's cultural appropriation, I can see why you're angry. I'd be angry at bees if I thought bee meant Nazi.

That's part of the endless litany of batshit usual responses used to deny the reality or shittiness of cultural appropriation and bury it under a mountain of irrelevance.

People don't deny the shittiness of the stuff you're quoting. You just don't know what cultural appropriation is.  

Oh good god Shell.  OFC you aren't 250 years old (though..it's still happening right now.....so.....?)..and I already addressed that exact sentiment...but you are a successor member of the culture which did the deed.  That cannot be changed by saying "Well, I didn't do it".  No, you didn't, but it was done, and it was a bad thing. 

Slavery isn't happening in America right now. No wonder you're so riled up. Also, no I am not a successor member of the culture that did the deed. I don't have a single slave-owning relative of which I am aware, and I am aware of quite a lot of them, given that my sister is a genealogist. Also, I could be second-generation South African for all you know. You only know that I'm now American.

Did I ever say it wasn't a bad thing? Nope. You said we repeatedly as if we should own that shit. I won't, and I shouldn't have to. It's absurd.

Shell, the usual suspects are very much sticking their heads in the and about thisa.  Not just here, on the internet, in crazy land..but also in the statehouse.  Still doing genteel racism, still supporting cultural appropriation while pretending that it didn't happen, and was a good thing, and all these liberals are fascists for pointing it out.

That..is what this entire thread...has been about.

Nope. A bunch of liberals are fascists because they're authoritarians who would love to have a liberal dictatorship whereby they enforce their SJW politics. You think it's just on the Internet? Cute.

Yes, it is happening right now..and very poigniently sao for the american fascists..... and you're still framing it as an us thing.  It's not.  It's not about us - you and me.  It's about what happened to other cultures when our forefathers saw fiot to do what they saw fit to do.  No, you're not doing anything wrong by listening to african music..nor is it cultural appropriation, and anyone who trieds to shame you is an idiot.  

However, once you stop -just- listening to african music..and argue that cultural appropriation didn't happen, or was a good thing, or support it then or here and now..you are no longer just listening to african music..and probably should be ashamed.  This, is when the bigot word comes out.  It probably doesn't apply to you.  It absolutely does apply to the bigots of american fascism..who very much wish to be able to do genteel racism, who's only response to their bigotry is to insist that someone is bigoted against them at least as hard..so, it's gotta be 'kay.

This is entirely based on your misunderstanding of the term cultural appropriation. You could say cultural appropriation is wearing a headdress and stealing things you found while perpetrating the Rape of Nanking, but you definitely can't say wearing a headdress that belongs to another culture isn't cultural appropriation. I'm sorry, but your definition is wrong. I don't say that because I want to be right. Seriously, you are using the term incorrectly and are the only person in this thread who is using that distorted definition. I can't waste time talking about it if you're not using the same definition as everyone else. Have a good day.

[The Grand Nudger]

Lets take another example. from earlier in thread..when one of the usual suspects attempted to insist that cultural appropriation was equivalent to learning spanish.

I grew up in a heavily latino state.  Because of this, I sprinkle spanish in my everyday language.  I like their food.  I cook it alot.  Their music, their art, their culture.  I make salsa and sell it, sometimes.  This is me adopting elements of another culture.  This is cultural transfer.  

If, however, I did all of the above, while actively attempting to kick the latinos out of my country, calling them rapists and bad hombres.  Insisting that they were takers.  Blaming our societal and economic woes on them.  Enforcing ethnic stereotypes and traditional bigotries.  Supporting the abuse of their rights by my state.........then, then.......it would be cultural appropriation.

Gee...doesn't that sound like a particular demographic of americans....to anyone?  The kind of americans who seem to have a compulsion to deny that something like that ever happens or is a bad thing.  Can't imagine why they'd be so motivated to deny, minimize, or de-legitimize the issue.

---

You're starting to get catty. I am a grown-up. Therefore, grown-up conversation. Here, just have a wiki article. Left-wing fascism is real, whether you want it to be or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism

Good, because you're being ridiculous.  You just linked to a page that explicitly states that this is a term used as a euphimism for similarities between a distinctly right wing political ideology and their left wing counterparts....predictably where they -would- have similarities, on grounds of their authoritarianism.   

I don't have to take it up with anybody. I can't help if you don't see it for what it is, but socialism and fascism have been bedmates for a very long time. That's coming from someone who loves bits of socialism. I just don't trust men to implement it.

I prefer to liken the political compass to a circle, where the left and the right meet on at least two ends and, predictably at those ends, show similarities.   I don;t trust anyone to implement socialism..mostly because fascists have an uncanny ability to pass themselves off as socialists, lol....

It is an indicator when the similar things they do are fascist. Moreover, the far left is not all socialist. I don't know why you keep saying that.

Socialism is the definition of the far left authoritarian slot on the political compass.  Authoritarianism is the top.  Where either side goes up they both go towards authoritarianism, but their authoritarianism takes on distinctly identifiable focuses and objectives.   This is how we can tell the difference between them..in spite of their similarities.

Huh? Again, I don't care about who is in the statehouse as it pertains to this discussion. I am talking about very vocal individuals from both sides of the spectrum who are damaging our society. I never made any statements regarding who has more power right now. I've never made any statements saying all of the left wing or all of the right wing are fascist. They both have fascist elements. You cannot point to which radical left-winger I choose to refer to and say it invalidates my argument. As long as there is one, my statements remain true.

They both have -authoritarian- elements, Shell.

Well, the law does . . . bruh. It's not cultural appropriation. It's a fucking crime that's already condemned.

Do you imagine that it -was- the law when the cultural appropriation occurred?  Or, even if it were, that an oppressed minority could expect equal protection under law?  

Okay, that's not the debate we're having. Don't care.

We're hardly having a debate at all.  As usual.

Because it is fucking cultural appropriation. It's the very thing the first respondent who decried cultural appropriation referred to. It's the fucking goalpost. You're talking about hate crimes, crimes against humanity, theft of intellectual property rights. These things already have names. If you think that's cultural appropriation, I can see why you're angry. I'd be angry at bees if I thought bee meant Nazi.

No, it;s not.  You, like pablo, are attempting to use an incomplete description of cultural appropriation. Go read a book (at least with you I think you might, lol).

People don't deny the shittiness of the stuff you're quoting. You just don't know what cultural appropriation is.   

They do...they did in this thread.   They do in the statehouse.  Just because -you- don't want to have that discussion with me, doesn't mean it isn't happening.  

Slavery isn't happening in America right now. No wonder you're so riled up. Also, no I am not a successor member of the culture that did the deed. I don't have a single slave-owning relative of which I am aware, and I am aware of quite a lot of them, given that my sister is a genealogist. Also, I could be second-generation South African for all you know. You only know that I'm now American.

Who's talking about slavery?  We're talking about cultural appropriation..which actually is happening, again.  Probably why it;s so onerous for the usual suspects to make the usual arguments.  If I had to guess.

Did I ever say it wasn't a bad thing? Nope. You said we repeatedly as if we should own that shit. I won't, and I shouldn't have to. It's absurd.

.................................

Nope. A bunch of liberals are fascists because they're authoritarians who would love to have a liberal dictatorship whereby they enforce their SJW politics. You think it's just on the Internet? Cute.

-We- do own whatever comments -we- make about it today.  We only own "it" in the context of past misdeeds in the sense that we are the cultural and actual descendants of those people..as I've repeatedly expressed, to multiple posters, more than once...and now..yourself.  That we are the country that did that, and is now doing it again.

What's absurd is you taking offense to something I have repeatedly assured every single poster in this thread of is emphatically not my position.

In any case, that some crazy on the internet, or your witless leftist neighbor, has authoritarian tendencies doe not concern me. What concerns me are what authoritarian tendencies are in the mainstream, in the statehouse. The american right unleashed the alt-white on us. They are not just looneys, being loonies, on the looneytubes. They are at the helm..of government. Find me where our left wing has done the same, has opened pandoras box in that way?

This is entirely based on your misunderstanding of the term cultural appropriation. You could say cultural appropriation is wearing a headdress and stealing things you found while perpetrating the Rape of Nanking, but you definitely can't say wearing a headdress that belongs to another culture isn't cultural appropriation. I'm sorry, but your definition is wrong. I don't say that because I want to be right. Seriously, you are using the term incorrectly and are the only person in this thread who is using that distorted definition. I can't waste time talking about it if you're not using the same definition as everyone else. Have a good day.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills............

[paulpablo]

I looked up on google and found the definition khemical is going for on a feminist website.

It's basically the standard definition of cultural apropriation but inherently bad and only white people can do it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of the elements of one culture by members of another culture.[1] Cultural appropriation, often framed as cultural misappropriation, is sometimes portrayed as harmful and is claimed to be a violation of the collectiveintellectual property rights of the originating culture.[2][3][4][5] Often unavoidable when multiple cultures come together, cultural appropriation can include using other cultures' traditions, food, fashion, symbols, technology, language, and cultural songs without permission.[6][7] [8] According to critics of the practice, cultural (mis)appropriation differs from acculturation, assimilation, or cultural exchange in that the "appropriation" or "misappropriation" refers to the adoption of these cultural elements in a colonial manner: elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context—sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of representatives of the originating culture.[5][9][10][11][12][13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation]
Bold and ital mine.  To show where a person has to conveniently stop reading..and what they definitely have to ignore, to imagine that I'm using a novel definition of the term. Conveniently, if you google it, and don;t oipen the link..it actually -does- stop there, where the ital starts. Coincidence? Doubtful. This isn't the first time I've linked it, either.

Is wiki a feminist website, numbskull? What made you run off to see if it was femi-nazism, anyway? You're a fucking moron. Anyone can do it, anyone capable of exerting that power in that sort of colonial relationship.