In Defense of God.

[brewer]

Don't tell me what "X" does not explain, show me proof that god exists. Not a book, not stories, not how it makes you feel,..... Straight up fucking proof! Identifiable, testable, reproducible, independently verifiable.  

Until then you're just having a bad party in your brain and I'm not attending.

[The Grand Nudger]

A good point as far as it goes, but there's no requirement of proof, and proof is not the same thing as evidence..what you seem to be looking for with the qualifiers of "straight up proof".  

Consider this, when a person stands on trial and offers the "god told me too" ense, even though the jury is almost certain to contain a majority believing demographic, they don't believe that defendant.  His personal testimony is not enough for -them- to believe, and I think here that you and I and a believer are all in agreement.  However, their own personal experience (if they had one) is more difficult for them to personally deny, and here again..I think that you and I and they would all agree.  

Their experience might not meet your standards of evidence, it may even be poor evidence by their own standards, or no evidence at all, but it still forms a compelling basis for their personal beliefs. Maybe they are wrong and believe because of a bad party in their brains, but that would be wrong for the right reasons. They may possess no proof.  There may be no proof of any god at all.  Faith and proof are not synonymous, and neither requires the other - nor does faith require a personal experience or to be based on the testimony of others personal experience. A faithful person can acknowledge all of this without any issues, but, ultimately, none of that tells us anything about whether or not there is a god.

Presumably, if there is a god, a great many people will have had non-factual experiences attributed to a god all the same.

[Minimalist]

How come fucking god can't defend himself?

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, we've heard one possibility - weakness.  Maybe he lacks the ability.  Or maybe he doesn't care, having written off what people do or say in his name long, long ago.  Presumably, he knows us pretty well by now....and is there any reason to think that even a god would be capable of coming down here to all these people and getting them all on the same page against every issue they personally hold?  

Then, there's the nuclear option.  Maybe god hates us.  Maybe he enjoys watching all this strife.  Maybe he's uninterested in clearing up that little "all -loving" misconception because our anguish only deepens the sadistic pleasure he derives from watching us suffer, in his name, not even knowing him.

Could be any number of reasons.  Ultimately, you'd have to ask god...for all the good that'd do you.  

[Jesster]

I'm tired of hearing believers tell me that their god will reveal himself to me if I meet "x" criteria. When I mention that I've done that, they usually add on a "y" or a "z" to discredit my attempts. I've waited patiently for this revelation as someone who already believed on faith alone for years. Then I started demanding this revelation. Nothing. I'm still fucking waiting, but the faith is in the trash bin where it belongs.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm tired of hearing believers tell me that their god will reveal himself to me if I meet "x" criteria. When I mention that I've done that, they usually add on a "y" or a "z" to discredit my attempts. I've waited patiently for this revelation as someone who already believed on faith alone for years. Then I started demanding this revelation. Nothing. I'm still fucking waiting, but the faith is in the trash bin where it belongs.

Me too.  Obviously those people were wrong about god or about the conditions required when they said that.  If you never do end up seeing god, at least it will have been an incredible test of patience. You'll probably come out better for it.

[WinterHold]

[The Grand Nudger]

[Wyrd of Gawd]

When discussing the biblical God it's best to use his preferred name and rank = "Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies." So instead of using the generic "God", which might be any of the thousands of other deities, if you write something like =

"Do you believe in Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies?" it makes it very specific instead of generic like "Do you believe in God?"

[Astonished]

So what I'm hearing is a lot of 'well, you can't disprove the deist god' bullshit. That's helpful.

You can't infer from nature that a designer is 'good' in terms of humanity, you can infer that they are either indifferent or cruel enough to take the occasional deliberate potshot.

What then, if no guidebook, no direct communication, or anything of the sort, can give any other real or rational indications about this supposed deity (whose minimum requirement is the capability to design at least one universe, however competently or incompetently), including whether or not one (or more) even exist, to the point where there is any point whatsoever in discussing or speculating?

It is literally a non-issue in this case and should have no impact whatsoever on our lives. Deism as a concept is even stupider than theism because at least theists have something (as spurious as it is, their antiquated texts and traditions) to legitimately argue about.