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Do you think religion is holding society back?
#41
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
Quote:All of it, his talents came from his creator, another belief Newton understood.

10 pounds of stupid in a 5 pound bag
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#42
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 27, 2017 at 10:12 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Wonder what folks in Yemen would think of this topic ??

It occurs to me I know this one:  Fucking Zionists fucking us over again, goddamn fucking Jew bastards !!
 The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it. 




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#43
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 27, 2017 at 5:28 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(June 26, 2017 at 9:18 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Newton didn't make those contributions by bullshitting anyone about gods...and the adventist church's rep in healthcare is based on providing medicine, not jesus.  

What kind of failed ideology is so bankrupt in it's own accomplishments that it compels believers to appropriate the work of human beings as the work of their religion?  The greatest thing that christianity has ever done for society, if christianity's own stories are to be believed...is to beat a jew near to death then hang him on a cross so that some asshole, somewhere, can avoid just punishment for being an asshole.

Yeah, thanks for that.   Jerkoff

Newton never denied his Christian belief and actually gave credit to it for his accomplishments. The Adventist church most certainly uses Jesus in it's medical practices. I have Adventist friends who keep me informed on such things.

GC
Newton didn't believe Jesus was divine.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing."  - Samuel Porter Putnam
 
           

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#44
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 27, 2017 at 10:38 pm)Fireball Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 5:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: To answer the thread question: Do you think religion is holding society back?, you have to define "back from what".

Scientifically, no. In fact, Christianity was instrumental in the early progress of modern science (that's why it developed almost entirely in the west) because it taught that the world and nature was created and entirely discoverable and NOT endowed with spiritual or mystical qualities--like the rest of the world still believed.

Some Utopian society? No. I think it has been proven over and over again that people do not play nicely with other different than themselves. I don't think there is any evidence that religious differences has done anywhere near the harm than non religious events of history.

Morality? No. In fact, I think religion has helped develop the general morality we see today in western countries. Most of us would agree that the western morality is superior to other parts of the world where differences arise.

Imploding? Yes. No matter what you think about religion, it has a very real, largely positive, psychological effect on people

How someone can be this wrong and still draw breath is a testimony to the vitality of the human organism, endowed by evolution. If one considers in a rational way what harm people can use religion for, religion can be seen to be a pustule on the entire body of humankind, not just the backside.

Holding back? How about where the RCC has only recently allowed that Galileo was actually right? Maybe you can bring Giordano Bruno back from right before he was burned at the stake for heresy? Maybe you can also bring back those people who were tortured during the Inquisition? FFS, you people apologizing for religion ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Morality? Don't delude yourself. Go look at the reality of what modern day evangelicals are doing in Uganda, just for example. It isn't any different from the kind of sickness visited on people since religion gained a foothold in the human psyche, millenia ago. I don't generally respond to posts like yours because of the amount of ignorance of xtian (and Muslim, for that matter) arrogance at what your kind claim to be the case for beneficial aspects of their religion. The reality is that the amount of horror visited on their fellow human beings because of religion is incalculable.


All good examples of the evil religion can do.  I think it happens because they believe what they do is for a greater good.  Sorry about the flames, Galileo, but it is God's work we do!  Wipe out some infidel?  Why not, we do it for God!  Anytime people locate the rationale for their action outside themselves, there is reason to worry.  If people want to entertain the notion that there is something beyond themselves I'd greatly appreciate it if they'd remain a little more humble about the extent to which they know what it wants from them.  Invariably, what it wants ends up being what they want but stripped of any self doubt.

(June 27, 2017 at 11:04 pm)Godscreated Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 7:23 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Seems to me all he showed was what he had done.  Which portions, of newtons work, if you had to guess...were jesus?  

All of it, his talents came from his creator, another belief Newton understood.


This just in: Newton's creator's talents came that creator's creator. But don't worry, there is no infinite regress here. Turns out our creator's creator is the alpha/omega .. by definition. Cool
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#45
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 26, 2017 at 8:01 am)It_Was_me Wrote: I have been watching the Alien vs Predator films lately. (I really enjoy them) But I am just sitting here thinking: I wonder if we will ever achieve that same level of technology? The other thought was that things like religion being so intertwined with our government (you know, people like Trump) will simply prevent this from ever happening. Then again perhaps that sort of technology is simply just a pipe dream, and it's simply something that Hollywood has a monopoly on.

Religions worldwide throughout our species history have always been slow to progress. It isn't one label, but our species fear of change. Our species evolved to be social and set up social structures. Unfortunately we did not have our current modern understanding of scientific reality. Our species also is tribal, no different than when other primates will compete among themselves over resources.

I'd recommend watching the new 13 part Cosmos series with Neil Degresse Tyson to get a good picture of how humans really are not different in this aspect. The gatekeepers of any given society, just like a dominate primate in a troupe does not like it's position challenged. 

Now, having said that, I really warn atheists not to think a godless / religion free world is possible. There is no such thing as a utopia, and their won't be a perfect atheist world either. The only thing our species can do long term is foster the idea of more education and more economic stability for more. We can work to get governments worldwide to value the concept of neutrality and protection of human rights. 

Religion IS a horrible way to conduct national political diplomacy much less global diplomacy. But you will never completely get rid of it. You can only insist on neutral laws and common law that protects everyone.
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#46
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 28, 2017 at 7:58 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(June 26, 2017 at 8:01 am)It_Was_me Wrote: I have been watching the Alien vs Predator films lately. (I really enjoy them) But I am just sitting here thinking: I wonder if we will ever achieve that same level of technology? The other thought was that things like religion being so intertwined with our government (you know, people like Trump) will simply prevent this from ever happening. Then again perhaps that sort of technology is simply just a pipe dream, and it's simply something that Hollywood has a monopoly on.

Religions worldwide throughout our species history have always been slow to progress. It isn't one label, but our species fear of change. Our species evolved to be social and set up social structures. Unfortunately we did not have our current modern understanding of scientific reality. Our species also is tribal, no different than when other primates will compete among themselves over resources.

I'd recommend watching the new 13 part Cosmos series with Neil Degresse Tyson to get a good picture of how humans really are not different in this aspect. The gatekeepers of any given society, just like a dominate primate in a troupe does not like it's position challenged. 

Now, having said that, I really warn atheists not to think a godless / religion free world is possible. There is no such thing as a utopia, and their won't be a perfect atheist world either. The only thing our species can do long term is foster the idea of more education and more economic stability for more. We can work to get governments worldwide to value the concept of neutrality and protection of human rights. 

Religion IS a horrible way to conduct national political diplomacy much less global diplomacy. But you will never completely get rid of it. You can only insist on neutral laws and common law that protects everyone.

Of course a utopia is not possible but the net gain from the castration of religion worldwide would be so massive it would be enough just seeing what that would yield. No rational skeptic is going to have such unrealistic delusions of grandeur, that's for the theists to entertain, but for most of us, just seeing whatever existing religions that currently dominate lose all political, financial and other significant means of power, would make the world good enough. Perfect? Fuck no, and to even aspire to that is foolhardy. A realistic big picture is the only thing that makes sense to pursue.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
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#47
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 27, 2017 at 10:38 pm)Fireball Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 5:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: To answer the thread question: Do you think religion is holding society back?, you have to define "back from what".

Scientifically, no. In fact, Christianity was instrumental in the early progress of modern science (that's why it developed almost entirely in the west) because it taught that the world and nature was created and entirely discoverable and NOT endowed with spiritual or mystical qualities--like the rest of the world still believed.

Some Utopian society? No. I think it has been proven over and over again that people do not play nicely with other different than themselves. I don't think there is any evidence that religious differences has done anywhere near the harm than non religious events of history.

Morality? No. In fact, I think religion has helped develop the general morality we see today in western countries. Most of us would agree that the western morality is superior to other parts of the world where differences arise.

Imploding? Yes. No matter what you think about religion, it has a very real, largely positive, psychological effect on people

How someone can be this wrong and still draw breath is a testimony to the vitality of the human organism, endowed by evolution.[1] If one considers in a rational way what harm people can use religion for, religion can be seen to be a pustule on the entire body of humankind, not just the backside.

Holding back? How about where the RCC has only recently allowed that Galileo was actually right?  Maybe you can bring Giordano Bruno back from right before he was burned at the stake for heresy? Maybe you can also bring back those people who were tortured during the Inquisition? [2] FFS, you people apologizing for religion ought to be ashamed of yourselves. [3]

Morality? Don't delude yourself. Go look at the reality of what modern day evangelicals are doing in Uganda, just for example. It isn't any different from the kind of sickness visited on people since religion gained a foothold in the human psyche, millenia ago. I don't generally respond to posts like yours because of the amount of ignorance of xtian (and Muslim, for that matter) arrogance at what your kind claim to be the case for beneficial aspects of their religion. The reality is that the amount of horror visited on their fellow human beings because of religion is incalculable. [4]

1. Your attempt a cleverness is missing the mark in cleverness, reasoning, and relevance.
2. Do you know anything about the dispute with Galileo?  Giordano Bruno was burned for his theological views. Regardless of any one person/event/dispute you can bring up, none of these rise to the level of holding back science--evidenced by the fact there were a 1000 scientist working and writing for every one that had a dispute with the Catholic church. Show me where the actual policy of the church was to curtail scientific discovery--or in the absence of that, show me where a series of organized events were unmistakably designed to do so. 
3. Whose apologizing for anything? Did you here me say I was sorry for anything--ever? If you think an apologist has anything to do with apologizing, you need to look up those words so you don't embarrass yourself again. 
4. Now you are just making the very common atheist assertions that are never justified/defended with actual facts and reasoning. You will always find people doing wrong things in the name of Christianity. However, the fact will always remain that if the action was not based on the teachings of the NT, then your dispute is not with the religion, it is with the person(s). Regarding the actual question I was answering, then tell me where atheism has developed a comparable or superior morality anywhere in the world in any time period.

(June 28, 2017 at 7:44 am)Whateverist Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 10:38 pm)Fireball Wrote: How someone can be this wrong and still draw breath is a testimony to the vitality of the human organism, endowed by evolution. If one considers in a rational way what harm people can use religion for, religion can be seen to be a pustule on the entire body of humankind, not just the backside.

Holding back? How about where the RCC has only recently allowed that Galileo was actually right? Maybe you can bring Giordano Bruno back from right before he was burned at the stake for heresy? Maybe you can also bring back those people who were tortured during the Inquisition? FFS, you people apologizing for religion ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Morality? Don't delude yourself. Go look at the reality of what modern day evangelicals are doing in Uganda, just for example. It isn't any different from the kind of sickness visited on people since religion gained a foothold in the human psyche, millenia ago. I don't generally respond to posts like yours because of the amount of ignorance of xtian (and Muslim, for that matter) arrogance at what your kind claim to be the case for beneficial aspects of their religion. The reality is that the amount of horror visited on their fellow human beings because of religion is incalculable.


All good examples of the evil religion can do.  I think it happens because they believe what they do is for a greater good.  Sorry about the flames, Galileo, but it is God's work we do!  Wipe out some infidel?  Why not, we do it for God!  Anytime people locate the rationale for their action outside themselves, there is reason to worry.  If people want to entertain the notion that there is something beyond themselves I'd greatly appreciate it if they'd remain a little more humble about the extent to which they know what it wants from them.  Invariably, what it wants ends up being what they want but stripped of any self doubt.
Galileo was not burned (not even harmed) and his dispute with the pope was about political disdain and not over science. 
If you have a beef with a decision the Catholic Church made, then criticize them by name. Lumping it into "religion" and then using as a reason for some other conclusion is disingenuous and inaccurate.

(June 27, 2017 at 5:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(June 27, 2017 at 5:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: To answer the thread question: Do you think religion is holding society back?, you have to define "back from what".

Scientifically, no. In fact, Christianity was instrumental in the early progress of modern science (that's why it developed almost entirely in the west) because it taught that the world and nature was created and entirely discoverable and NOT endowed with spiritual or mystical qualities--like the rest of the world still believed.
Oh, is that how that happened?  -and here I thought it was some sort of period of enlightenment, where rationality became prominant, on the backs of some sort of, oh..whats the word..renaissance, of classical pagan thinking?  

Turns out the christers opened their bibles and christed all the science into existence.  
Surveying all the world's civilizations up until that point seems to indicate that the Christian worldview was important in the development of modern science. At the very least, it was the most conducive worldview up to that point.
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#48
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 28, 2017 at 9:49 am)SteveII Wrote:
(June 28, 2017 at 7:44 am)Whateverist Wrote: All good examples of the evil religion can do.  I think it happens because they believe what they do is for a greater good.  Sorry about the flames, Galileo, but it is God's work we do!  Wipe out some infidel?  Why not, we do it for God!  Anytime people locate the rationale for their action outside themselves, there is reason to worry.  If people want to entertain the notion that there is something beyond themselves I'd greatly appreciate it if they'd remain a little more humble about the extent to which they know what it wants from them.  Invariably, what it wants ends up being what they want but stripped of any self doubt.
Galileo was not burned (not even harmed) and his dispute with the pope was about political disdain and not over science. 
If you have a beef with a decision the Catholic Church made, then criticize them by name. Lumping it into "religion" and then using as a reason for some other conclusion is disingenuous and inaccurate.

Well my point [bolded] still stands. This is the issue I think your lot needs to take seriously. The key to having a higher power in your life without becoming flaming assholes about it is to always bear in mind that it isn't your higher power. And consider the possibility that you may not be the apple of its eye, even if it were some wooey external agency as you picture it. Pro tip: He might find your lot a little too cloying and prefer the independence of skeptics.
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#49
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
So he was not imprisoned by a religious authority ?
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#50
RE: Do you think religion is holding society back?
(June 27, 2017 at 11:04 pm)Godscreated Wrote: If he had been a Hindu it might have been a long time before God revealed what he revealed through Newton.

GC

You'll have to forgive me here as I don't pay as much attention to the forum as I used to but are you Godschild reincarnate? It's the 'GC' signature thing cropping up again. If not, is it a bit of a trend starting..Godscat, Godschav, Godschuff, Godscreampie, Godscunt.? Possibilities are endless.
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