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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 1:05 am
(October 12, 2010 at 6:19 am)solja247 Wrote: Quote:
[quote="solja"]Any Christian who argues the law was done away with at the cross does not know what they are talking about. The Mosaic law (including the ten commandments) have been fullfilled, they were a shadow of things to come. However, if you want to keep the passover go ahead. Early Christians kept the Passover, not Easter (Easter was a pagan event). I personally keep the Sabbath and although some people are very legalistic (No swiming on the sabbath, no fun, no secular activites) I think Jesus said it very well, that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. However, in Jesus's time people were very legalistic, you had laws to prevent the torah from being broken (one of them was no healing on the sabbath) back when the Mosaic law was written it wasnt so much about being legalistic, it was trying to set of rules and principles for the Jews to keep that would make them live good lives, if they failed, they would sacrifice a lamb or some other animal...
The law has never been done away, but it has been fulfilled, in love...
Godschild Wrote:The Father, Christ and Holy Spirit were from the begining ie. Genesis. As for stoneing someone for working on the Sabbath that is against the laws of our country that was founded on religious freedom. All the OT law does not apply to christianity. Jesus said, it was said to hate your enemies, I say to love your enemies and even supply their needs. When the priest condemned the disciples for picking grain to eat on the Sabbath Jesus said do you not pull an ox from the ditch on the Sabbath, then He told them He was the Lord of the Sabbath and that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Jesus was saying to the priest that I have not judged them so why should you. Many different laws in the OT were meant for different reasons and some of those do not apply to todays world.
solja Wrote:I am sorry to say you are wrong. I have dont ample of research on the Sabbath and the law and none of them were done away with at the cross. Christianity was very much so Jewish, they kept the Torah, went to all the feasts and new moon celebrations.
What am I wrong about? I never said that the Sabbath was done away with and I did not say that the law was done away with at the cross. I said that some of the laws do not apply to christianity today.
Many of the Jews insisted that circumcision was a must for salvation and that baptisim was a must for salvation, Paul disagrees, he also disagreed with the food laws and Jesus said that it is not what goes in a man's mouth that makes him unclean, it's what comes out of the mouth that makes one unclean. I do believe many of the OT laws apply to christians, if we would focus on the 10 Commandments we would not need to worry over the other laws.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 1:13 am
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I love watching 2 xtians argue about which pile of trash smells worse.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 2:05 am
(October 14, 2010 at 1:13 am)Minimalist Wrote:
I love watching 2 xtians argue about which pile of trash smells worse.
Me too. They can't both be right.... but they can both be wrong 
(October 13, 2010 at 11:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: It,s not cherry picking some of the OT laws do not apply to christianity as a matter of fact they were given to show the need of Christ as savior. Adam and Eve could not keep the only law given them and no one has ever keep all the 10 commandments, we're a pretty sorry lot.
John 1:1-5 These verses tell us that Christ was with the Father in the begining and that all things were made through Him. (Jesus was there at the start of creation)
Genesis 1:1-3 These verses tell us that the Father and Holy Spirit were present at the begining. Those eight verses show the Trinity has always been.
Genesis 3:22 God says,"Behold the man has become like us knowing good and evil. Here God the Father refers to the Son and Holy Spirit.
Ok, let me deal with your scripture. First off, John is NT. So him saying that Christ was with God in the beginning is a simple case of retcon. He could also have written that in the beginning God had a dog, but the OT doesn't say that he did. Anything from the NT that tries to rewrite the OT is not admissible.
Genesis 1 - this is just the christian interpretation. Could it be that the spirit of god is simply a reference to his spirit, not a separate entity? Otherwise you could also then say the brain of god, or the heart of god is also part of the multipart god (assuming he has a brain or heart). I'm sure the Jews do not have this interpretation of this passage, and remember, it was their book first.... but actually, as Christianity grew out of Judaism then really you should have the same interpretation.
Genesis 3 - yes, i love this one. This also links in nicely with "you shall have no other gods before me" the plural usage of god (Gods - Elohim) in the OT, and other reference that imply, Yahweh is not alone, which fits in nicely with historical evidence that prior to Judaism's evolution Yahweh was a lesser deity of a larger pantheon. I'm very happy to agree with you that God is not alone.... but this does not imply that there are 3 gods that are in reality one god.
Remember, out ancestors invented polytheism much earlier than monotheism. Yahweh as a singular god came onto the scene quite later in the evolution of religion and he came from a pantheon, which explains a lot of the pluralism in the OT regarding god(s). What Christianity actually did with the whole idea of the trinity was a step backwards towards polythesim, and Catholicism took it even a step further by raising Mary to a level of importance that borders on hubris, in effect she is almost (or more) powerful than the Jesus component of God because people pray to her to intercede with her son... who is also the father... and it all gets a little confusing.
Anyway... this is going off-topic... sorry, why can/can't Christians ignore the OT laws?
A finite number of monkeys with a finite number of typewriters and a finite amount of time could eventually reproduce 4chan.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 3:19 am
Yeah, Yahweh seems to have been a fairly minor god in the Canaanite pantheon and may have been a local deity in Judah or at least the desert regions of the south. When Jerusalem grew around the 8th century BCE he may have gotten a promotion.
http://alkman1.blogspot.com/2007/01/cana...theon.html
Quote:YAHWEH: Yahweh is added here because there was a short time in which He was simply part of the Canaanite pantheon. He was a Son of El; and he was part of the court of El as cupbearer along with Baal. Later, as the National God of Israel, Yahweh was equated with El, and Asherah became His wife.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 9:41 am
(October 13, 2010 at 11:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: The Bible is for instruction, you do not erase things just because they are no longer used.
Laws that are "no longer used" DO get erased from the law books. Otherwise our law books would be filled with thousands of repealed laws.
Quote: I have a question for you Thor, if the laws are removed from the law books then how is it we know of them?
What a stupid question. We know about laws that have been removed because there are historical records detailing when the law was put into effect and when it was repealed. And I don't get what point you're trying to make here.
Quote:Thor ask a question about OT law and let,s see if we can find an answer. The answer we find may not be to your liking, that does not make it any less true.
"Truth" and the Bible go together like spaghetti and chocolate sauce. You want a question about the OT? Okay, where does the Bible tells us that the OT laws no longer apply?
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 2:08 pm
(This post was last modified: October 14, 2010 at 2:16 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(October 13, 2010 at 11:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: It,s not cherry picking some of the OT laws do not apply to christianity as a matter of fact they were given to show the need of Christ as savior. Adam and Eve could not keep the only law given them and no one has ever keep all the 10 commandments, we're a pretty sorry lot.
John 1:1-5 These verses tell us that Christ was with the Father in the begining and that all things were made through Him. (Jesus was there at the start of creation)
Genesis 1:1-3 These verses tell us that the Father and Holy Spirit were present at the begining. Those eight verses show the Trinity has always been.
Genesis 3:22 God says,"Behold the man has become like us knowing good and evil. Here God the Father refers to the Son and Holy Spirit.
The ancient Hebrews were polytheistic. I don't know if you noticed that Yahweh's curious habit of referring to himself by the royal we abruptly ended after Genesis.
(October 14, 2010 at 3:19 am)Minimalist Wrote: Yeah, Yahweh seems to have been a fairly minor god in the Canaanite pantheon and may have been a local deity in Judah or at least the desert regions of the south. When Jerusalem grew around the 8th century BCE he may have gotten a promotion.
NonStampCollecter (YouTube) needs to do a video on Yahweh's story of his rise from rags to riches. He had his modest start as a small member of a pantheon of some insignificant tribe, bullied by the other gods with much cooler names (ZEUS! ... RA! ... ODIN! ...(nerd voice) Yahweh), he rose to become the sole owner of the biggest religion franchise in the world.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 14, 2010 at 2:26 pm
There is an Egyptian reference to a Yah who was a god of the Midianites or some other shitty desert tribe. I'll have to go looking for it. It might be in one my (shudder) books.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 15, 2010 at 12:00 am
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2010 at 12:25 am by Godscreated.)
(October 12, 2010 at 11:07 am)Thor Wrote: I love it when I point out absurd laws in the Bible and Christians want to tell me that I am talking about "Mosaic Law" and that doesn't apply any more.
I then challenge them to show me where in the book it says that these laws "don't apply any more".
I also ask, "Well, if these laws don't apply any more, then why are they still in the book?" (After all, when we repeal laws they are removed from the law books!)
I have yet to receive a reasonable answer to either question.
Ditto: History Thor history. Does this make sense to you, a historical account of the Jewish nation.
(October 14, 2010 at 1:13 am)Minimalist Wrote:
I love watching 2 xtians argue about which pile of trash smells worse.
I'm not arguing a point I'm asking questions, then there might be a discussion arise about the answers given. Why would you expect christians to differ on certain things. I see evolutionist argue over their interpertation of bones and I see that as persons trying to get at a reasonable explanation. Historians continuely argue over dates and evidence, why should christians be any different. I know you like to believe we have all been brain washed to see everything the same way, surprise we do not. Because God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent we have a difficult time in understanding many aspects of Him so there will be differences in our views, this in no way means we are trying to tear each other down, we are trying to understand who He is. I have come to a better understanding of God from other denominations, I,m Southern Baptist and some of my views of God differ greatly from my denomination, that doesn't mean I've discovered something they have not because I could be wrong and I will keep searching until I come into His presence and then I will see clearly.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 15, 2010 at 1:14 am
Um...because you both read the same stupid book and think it says different things.
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RE: Why can't Christians say that parts of the Old Testament don't apply??..
October 15, 2010 at 1:54 am
(This post was last modified: October 15, 2010 at 1:57 am by Godscreated.)
(October 14, 2010 at 2:05 am)Loki_999 Wrote: [quote='Minimalist' pid='99157' dateline='1287033186']
I love watching 2 xtians argue about which pile of trash smells worse.
Me too. They can't both be right.... but they can both be wrong
Loki_999 Wrote:Ok, let me deal with your scripture. First off, John is NT. So him saying that Christ was with God in the beginning is a simple case of retcon. He could also have written that in the beginning God had a dog, but the OT doesn't say that he did. Anything from the NT that tries to rewrite the OT is not admissible.
Genesis 1 - this is just the christian interpretation. Could it be that the spirit of god is simply a reference to his spirit, not a separate entity? Otherwise you could also then say the brain of god, or the heart of god is also part of the multipart god (assuming he has a brain or heart). I'm sure the Jews do not have this interpretation of this passage, and remember, it was their book first.... but actually, as Christianity grew out of Judaism then really you should have the same interpretation.
Genesis 3 - yes, i love this one. This also links in nicely with "you shall have no other gods before me" the plural usage of god (Gods - Elohim) in the OT, and other reference that imply, Yahweh is not alone, which fits in nicely with historical evidence that prior to Judaism's evolution Yahweh was a lesser deity of a larger pantheon. I'm very happy to agree with you that God is not alone.... but this does not imply that there are 3 gods that are in reality one god.
Remember, out ancestors invented polytheism much earlier than monotheism. Yahweh as a singular god came onto the scene quite later in the evolution of religion and he came from a pantheon, which explains a lot of the pluralism in the OT regarding god(s). What Christianity actually did with the whole idea of the trinity was a step backwards towards polythesim, and Catholicism took it even a step further by raising Mary to a level of importance that borders on hubris, in effect she is almost (or more) powerful than the Jesus component of God because people pray to her to intercede with her son... who is also the father... and it all gets a little confusing.
Anyway... this is going off-topic... sorry, why can/can't Christians ignore the OT laws?
You asked for scriptures, you did not specify OT or NT so all the verses I used are relevant. You're trying to limit the facts as given in scripture. The OT and NT are one book in christianity and that is what this is about. God is not only God to the Jews He is God to all that believe. You are flawed in your thinking, the way you think would negate any new laws from being written and if you think you are correct then you and Thor need to have a discussion.
The Jews had Jesus put to death because He called Himself the Son of God And Jesus told His disciples that He had to return to the Father so the Helper (Holy Spirit) could come, in this one statement the Trinity is made visible. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit desended upon Him and the Father said this is My Son in whom I Am is well pleased, another example of the Trinity. Jesus also told His disciples that the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God, He did not mean this was just Gods spirit Jesus meant that the Holy Spirit would interact with man to help him know the will of God. Jesus also told His disciples that He and the Father were as One. If you like I will look up and post all the passages, I do not believe I need to you seem to know that they are in scriptures. This is alot of scripture statements that show the three persons of the One true God and yes they are three seperate persons of the God of creation. As for the OT it's the foretelling of Christ, I'm not sure how anyone could deny the Trinity.
Catholicism is wrong in elevating Mary to such a high place, Jesus in His time on earth did not hint that this was to happen. Catholicism has broken the commandment not to worship any other gods.
The Son is not the Father, Jesus said that the Father is the only one who knows the exact time of His (Jesus) return, if Jesus was the Father He would also know this and He said He did not also the Holy Spirit does not know the exact time of Jesus return, more good evidence that there are three persons that are one God. I agree the Trinity is a hard thing to understand.
Christians should not ignor the OT there are many valuable lessons to be learned, there's so much that helps us to understand God. The OT is what the disciples used to preach about Jesus in their ministries, it was their proof of His coming and many people were converted because of the OT wittness to Christ. If you want I can show you scriptures of why, not all the OT applies to christians. It's late so I'll look for your reply this weekend.
(October 15, 2010 at 1:14 am)Minimalist Wrote: Um...because you both read the same stupid book and think it says different things.
And evolutionist look at the same stupid fossil and think it's two, three, four and more different things.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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