Watching my cat, thinking about god and human nature

[Aliza]

Thank you for your honesty.

I would have added something about, what's to be made of the fact that religions are so exclusionary and elitist and favor in-group members, which does offer incentives (monetary and social) to stay in? Pretty fucked up kind of system to be supporting or belonging to, at least in the eyes of an outsider. I'd ask if there's any defense of that but I doubt it'll be coherent.

We can start with you making your question more coherent. 

... Oh wait, you didn't ask a question. NVM.

[Astonished]

I would have added something about, what's to be made of the fact that religions are so exclusionary and elitist and favor in-group members, which does offer incentives (monetary and social) to stay in? Pretty fucked up kind of system to be supporting or belonging to, at least in the eyes of an outsider. I'd ask if there's any defense of that but I doubt it'll be coherent.

We can start with you making your question more coherent. 

... Oh wait, you didn't ask a question. NVM.

The first sentence is a compound sentence but still a question. Perhaps you require it to be dumbed-down somewhat.

[Aliza]

We can start with you making your question more coherent. 

... Oh wait, you didn't ask a question. NVM.

The first sentence is a compound sentence but still a question. Perhaps you require it to be dumbed-down somewhat.

That would be awesome. Break it down for me because what I read seemed to be a proposal for a question that you didn't have the ballsack to follow through on actually asking.

Maybe I read it wrong. I'm majoring in physics, not English. Go ahead and break it down for me.

[*Deidre*]

I think that our ideas of gods tend to mirror what we see ourselves doing - we have a justice system, we ''punish'' people with prison and in some cases the death penalty, we reward people for good behavior (a raise at work or promotion, etc) and so on. So, it's not unlikely to imagine a god who is our mirrored reflection, behaving in human ways, thus the eternal time out aka ''hell,'' or the sweetest of rewards, heaven. And everything we hate, the gods hate too, ever notice that? If someone is a bigot, well he/she will certainly find a Bible passage supporting it, but of course, it won't be considered bigotry in the Bible.

But, just for the record, most likely your cat, like all cats...thinks she is the God, not you. lol

[Astonished]

The first sentence is a compound sentence but still a question. Perhaps you require it to be dumbed-down somewhat.

That would be awesome. Break it down for me because what I read seemed to be a proposal for a question that you didn't have the ballsack to follow through on actually asking.

Maybe I read it wrong. I'm majoring in physics, not English. Go ahead and break it down for me.

Physics isn't my cup of tea. Doesn't make sense to me having to memorize how to apply different formulas to every slight variation of every conceivable situation but I still have to take a second semester of it for my chem major. Chem is much more fixed when it comes to that kind of thing. Organic's a bitch though. Too similar to Bio which is even worse.

The question is, since you are honest enough to acknowledge that it's not necessary to adopt a tradition of faith in order to live a life of the same sort of standard you seem to enjoy, why be okay with living a lifestyle of the religious sort (not necessarily your own, or your particular flavor) when the flaws that come with it are causing others misery on a daily basis? It just seems like lending credibility to faith, any faith, whether intentional or not (i.e. practicing vs. cultural), helps strengthe its stranglehold over others and propagates the insanity that results. More voices proudly proclaiming to reject all of it would logically be the more appropriate response if one had the choice in the matter, I would think. So given that you should be able to live life without losing anything so meaningful as to make you incapable of making the previous admission, I don't see why the leap couldn't be made. I don't know whether you were already on the path to abandoning it or planning on transmitting it to the generation that follows but I would hope this possibility at least crossed your mind.

[Silver]

I think that our ideas of gods tend to mirror what we see ourselves doing - we have a justice system, we ''punish'' people with prison and in some cases the death penalty, we reward people for good behavior (a raise at work or promotion, etc) and so on. So, it's not unlikely to imagine a god who is our mirrored reflection, behaving in human ways, thus the eternal time out aka ''hell,'' or the sweetest of rewards, heaven. And everything we hate, the gods hate too, ever notice that? If someone is a bigot, well he/she will certainly find a Bible passage supporting it, but of course, it won't be considered bigotry in the Bible.

But, just for the record, most likely your cat, like all cats...thinks she is the God, not you. lol

Historically speaking, especially due to how many view the incompetent justice system, god and the devil and hell seem appropriate systems for justice where human justice fails.

Unfortunately, all that was logically done was to replace a failed human system with a fantasy.

And my cat knows she's the Queen of this household.

[Astonished]

I think that our ideas of gods tend to mirror what we see ourselves doing - we have a justice system, we ''punish'' people with prison and in some cases the death penalty, we reward people for good behavior (a raise at work or promotion, etc) and so on. So, it's not unlikely to imagine a god who is our mirrored reflection, behaving in human ways, thus the eternal time out aka ''hell,'' or the sweetest of rewards, heaven. And everything we hate, the gods hate too, ever notice that? If someone is a bigot, well he/she will certainly find a Bible passage supporting it, but of course, it won't be considered bigotry in the Bible.

But, just for the record, most likely your cat, like all cats...thinks she is the God, not you. lol

Historically speaking, especially due to how many view the incompetent justice system, god and the devil and hell seem appropriate systems for justice where human justice fails.

Unfortunately, all that was logically done was to replace a failed human system with a fantasy.

And my cat knows she's the Queen of this household.

The only devil that does anything when justice fails...

[*Deidre*]

I went to my city's comic con last year and saw him ^^ live.

[Astonished]

Charlie Cox? Awesome! So can't wait for Defenders this fall. Better make up for how crappy Iron Fist was.

[Aliza]

Physics isn't my cup of tea. Doesn't make sense to me having to memorize how to apply different formulas to every slight variation of every conceivable situation but I still have to take a second semester of it for my chem major. Chem is much more fixed when it comes to that kind of thing. Organic's a bitch though. Too similar to Bio which is even worse.

Chemistry isn’t my cup of tea either. I only required three university level chemistry courses as prerequisites for physics, and I hated every minute of them.

I appreciate the tenor of your post, because you’ve raised some really good points and challenges to my way of thinking that I want the opportunity to speak to and engage in a productive conversation. I welcome push back. Maybe you’ve got good points that I haven’t yet considered or maybe I've misunderstood some of your points or overgeneralized them. If that’s the case, let's discuss them.

It sounds like you're pushing for a redaction of all religion, and while I think some religions are dangers to both their adherents and others, I don't think forcing a certain mindset about religion on 7 billion people is either practical or wise. Cultures that value homogeneity are 100% wrong. I can think of no saving grace (if you will forgive the term) to justify that kind of mindset. It’s pure poison, it hurts people, and it suppresses people. I'll discuss that further after I'm done addressing your points.

The question is, since you are honest enough to acknowledge that it's not necessary to adopt a tradition of faith in order to live a life of the same sort of standard you seem to enjoy, why be okay with living a lifestyle of the religious sort (not necessarily your own, or your particular flavor) when the flaws that come with it are causing others misery on a daily basis?

I'm a Floridian, and I like living a Floridian lifestyle. I like going to the beach (sometimes), I like outdoor malls dotted with palm trees, I like Disney World and Universal Studios, theme dining, the all the other amazing tourist attractions that are right here in my back yard. I like and brightly colored houses, wearing sandals almost year round, and I like living in a multi-cultural state with a strong Hispanic influence.

I like being Floridian.

But hey, California was gorgeous; they’ve got a little bit of everything out there and Redwoods to boot. Alaska was awesome and I seriously considered spending a summer there… Montreal was amazing and rich with history and culture, but it was Vancouver that really stole my heart. I seriously considered relocating permanently. –But every time vacation time is over, I go home and I remember that I’m Floridian. I love living in Florida, I love being a Floridian, and while I have the resources to relocate, I really just want to live in my home in Florida.

I think we’re a better human species for having diversity, and I think practicing and mastering the art of appreciating and tolerating diversity allows encourages us to think outside the box so we can grow. It also helps us to appreciate other view points so we can consider ideas that we might not have come up with on our own, and that also helps us grow.

But you were asking about religions, not secular cultures. I’m getting there, I just wanted to first lay the framework that I’m of the firm belief that there are many valid ways of living and choosing not to join a different culture does not mean that you don’t like the culture.

You mentioned flaws within cultures that bother you, but the perception of flaws are highly subjective. I don’t eat pork, shellfish, cockroaches, snakes, spiders, monkeys, puppy dogs, kittens, or snails. I avoid these foods because my religion and culture have dictated that these things are not proper for Jews. Maybe you see that as a flaw in my culture because you feel I’ve been brainwashed to find certain foods detestable and you think it’s a terrible injustice that I don’t get to enjoy some delicious Golden Retriever steak. -Or maybe you’re in my camp, and you can appreciate that the quality of my life isn’t impacted by my cultural food choices. I have, however, actually been told that I'm "missing out" on bacon, but they never seem to agree that they're likewise "missing out" fried tarantula. My lifestyle choices about my food, my clothing, my hair style, my marriage rituals, whether or not I watch TV, put my kids through private or public school, or whether or not I think G-d is real should not cause a single person to feel an iota of pain or misery, and if it does, then frankly the problem lies with that individual. I can’t help that person.

It just seems like lending credibility to faith, any faith, whether intentional or not (i.e. practicing vs. cultural), helps strengthe its stranglehold over others and propagates the insanity that results.

Does my choosing not to eat spiders for religious reason automatically align me with all other people who believe in a deity? Are Jews somehow inextricably connected with Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and Satanists because we believe in a higher power? Isn’t that the same as blaming black Americans for the corruption in many African nations? Should black communities in the United States be dismantled because clearly Africa has problems, so black people in the United States will invariably have the same problems because they’re both black (that made me feel sick just typing it, so I really hope the point was well made.)

When a culture is bad, the world community needs to take action against the actual perpetrators. We don’t get to point to innocent people who happen to share some traits with our enemies and say, “look what atheism lead to in Russia with communism and labor camps, so clearly all atheists are bad!” If a particular religion or culture makes anyone miserable or pains them, I’d encourage them to raise those issues with those people rather than holding other, unrelated cultures accountable, or encouraging the dismantling of other cultures on the grounds that they don't fit their own personal ideal.

So given that you should be able to live life without losing anything so meaningful as to make you incapable of making the previous admission, I don't see why the leap couldn't be made.

A leap could be made, but as I stated above, I like being Floridian. I know I can choose to change genders, but I like being a woman; I identify as one, and I don't need to show my support of the transgender community by switching genders. I like turning my nose up at stewed spiders and I just plain like being Jewish. If I wanted to make a change, I would make it. –In fact, as I stated in a previous post, I was raised secular. I made this change to a more observant Jewish lifestyle. I chose it because it suited me. No one’s thoughts, opinions, or views of Christianity or Islam or any other religion even apply to my life, and they’re summarily dismissed when brought up.

When you make a statement like, “I don’t see why the leap can’t be made,” you’re insinuating that my life isn’t good enough to meet your standards. That’s what Christians do. They dismiss any good that may be seen in anyone else’s life because they just can’t see value in other people. They try to persuade you to adopt their way of thinking and their way of life. They try to homogenize the culture.

Of course a leap could be made, but fuck that shit. I like being me.

I don't know whether you were already on the path to abandoning it or planning on transmitting it to the generation that follows but I would hope this possibility at least crossed your mind.

Actually, this part I’m not clear on. I plan to raise my children Jewish. I was raised Jewish, and I like the effect it's had on me. Clearly, no one is trying to screw their kids up on purpose. We teach them what we think is right.



So I’ve addressed your points, but I want to speak a little more on the homogenization of culture because I find it so dangerous, and so damaging that I feel it can’t go unaddressed.

The idea of living in a homogeneous society of only people you approve of is a pipe dream born out of the 1950’s. From an American standpoint, in the 1950’s when White Anglo Saxon Protestants dominated the population in North America, the black community still existed as a suppressed minority and were fighting for basic rights and recognition. Women weren't taken seriously in business (at all), homosexuals had to hide their lifestyles, and foreigners were treated like second-class citizens. A homogeneous culture leads to ignorance and intolerance, and no matter how hard to try to squash them, there will always be pockets of minority “others” who exist in a population. Cultural homogeneity is 100% bad, and trying to engineer a society that thinks the same will fail. The human condition is one of change and evolution coupled with the need to create cooperative social structures for our own survival. We both need the diversity and fear it, but shutting down entire schools of thought will only lead to more hurt and pain for those who classify themselves as outsiders, and the fight for acceptance and reform (and the pain and hurt that goes with it) will begin anew. There is nothing that I can think of to which cultural homogenization contributes positively.

Learning to accept and appreciate (without necessarily joining) other’s viewpoints is how you build mutual tolerance and respect for others. That's how real progress will come.

(Phew! That was a long post! I appreciate the thoughtful question.)