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No Trans In The Military Says Trump
RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 8:10 pm)Javaman Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 5:26 pm)bennyboy Wrote: ...

The problem is that rights are not well-defined, and people will push the envelope for ever.  Look at Canada, where a misuse of gender pronouns is now legislated as a hate crime.  In language, there's a serious movement to establish very many new gender pronouns in order to recognize every individual's "right" to have their unique place on various sexual and identity axes represented fully-- and at this rate, it will be a crime not to embrace this bullshit.




Umm no. The bolded is flat out wrong. To borrow a quote from the Canadian Bar Association: "This is a misunderstanding of human rights and hate crimes legislation." I've got more quotes to demonstrate your wrongness should you be interested.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada...-pronouns/

The fact is that in Ontario, there is an arbitrating body, the Human Rights Commission, which serves not as a court but as a tribunal, meaning they can pretty much drum up whatever charges they want, without the accused being able to mount a legal defense.  It also has very great discretion to determine what constitutes a "hate crime," and given the current political climate, this is a dangerous thing.


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaki...acceptance Wrote:Ontario Human Rights Code guidelines “mandate” the use of genderless pronouns on request, he said.

“Mandating use of pronouns requires one to use words that are not their own that imply a belief in or agreement with a certain theory on gender,” he added.

“If you try to disavow that theory, you can be brought before the Human Rights Commission for misgendering or potentially find yourself guilty of a hate crime. To sum up, on the subject of gender, we’re going to have government-mandated speech.”

A Canadian gym owner was brought up on charges for refusing to let a trans-gender "woman" use the women's changing room because she was walking around with her penis exposed. The gym owner ended up saddled with $100k legal fees, which neither the Commission nor the penis-displaying woman were required to compensate.

See? Special snowflake, special rules, real inconvenience to normal people. It's a problem.
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
You know what's a stupid law????? The law the US has banning trans-gendered people from serving in the military, you know the one that this thread is about.
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 5:26 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Fuck it, I'm officially coming out as a bensexual, and from now on, refer to me as follows: "bennyboy is an asshole.  Bene should not assert benis special snowflake status because nobody gives a shit about benim.

Great! Now go have a nice hot cup of gofuckyerself.

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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 8:41 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 8:10 pm)Javaman Wrote: Umm no. The bolded is flat out wrong. To borrow a quote from the Canadian Bar Association: "This is a misunderstanding of human rights and hate crimes legislation." I've got more quotes to demonstrate your wrongness should you be interested.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/canada...-pronouns/

The fact is that in Ontario, there is an arbitrating body, the Human Rights Commission, which serves not as a court but as a tribunal, meaning they can pretty much drum up whatever charges they want, without the accused being able to mount a legal defense.  It also has very great discretion to determine what constitutes a "hate crime," and given the current political climate, this is a dangerous thing.


https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/breaki...acceptance Wrote:Ontario Human Rights Code guidelines “mandate” the use of genderless pronouns on request, he said.

“Mandating use of pronouns requires one to use words that are not their own that imply a belief in or agreement with a certain theory on gender,” he added.

“If you try to disavow that theory, you can be brought before the Human Rights Commission for misgendering or potentially find yourself guilty of a hate crime. To sum up, on the subject of gender, we’re going to have government-mandated speech.”

A Canadian gym owner was brought up on charges for refusing to let a trans-gender "woman" use the women's changing room because she was walking around with her penis exposed.  The gym owner ended up saddled with $100k legal fees, which neither the Commission nor the penis-displaying woman were required to compensate.

See?  Special snowflake, special rules, real inconvenience to normal people.  It's a problem.

Your initial claim was that recent legislation made it a criminal offence in Canada to use the wrong gender pronoun when addessing transgendered people. I pointed out that the claim was false.

Rather than acknowledging the initial claim was wrong, you then shifted the goalposts to suggest there may be repercussions in civil legal jurisdictions, such as the Ontario Human Rights tribunal, if a private individual uses the wrong pronoun when addressing a trans person. Even when reading through the heavily biased sources you provide, it's so unlikely that a private individual would face any repercussions whatsoever for using the wrong pronoun, that it is frankly irrational to present them as cautionary examples. Both sources, LifeSite (Catholic) and The Daily Caller (conservative) are so blatantly obvious as propaganda sites that I'm genuinely surprised you used them to support your claims. The language they use to depict a worst case scenario for someone who dares to use the "incorrect" pronouns is so vague and wishy washy that it's hard to take them seriously, even if you're not aware of their biases in advance.

To me, it's still pretty clear that your interpretation is wrong, despite your changing of the criteria. You seem to be conflating a whole bunch of different issues to make your point.

Oh yeah, I nearly forgot to address this: "See?  Special snowflake, special rules, real inconvenience to normal people.  It's a problem"

Your anti-trans bias is showing by identifying them as "not normal". Not to mention your prior descriptions of such things as bullshit.
Sporadic poster
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 10:16 pm)Javaman Wrote: Your initial claim was that recent legislation made it a criminal offence in Canada to use the wrong gender pronoun when addessing transgendered people. I pointed out that the claim was false.
Ontario's in Canada.

Quote:Rather than acknowledging the initial claim was wrong, you then shifted the goalposts to suggest there may be repercussions in civil legal jurisdictions, such as the Ontario Human Rights tribunal, if a private individual uses the wrong pronoun when addressing a trans person. Even when reading through the heavily biased sources you provide, it's so unlikely that a private individual would face any repercussions whatsoever for using the wrong pronoun, that it is frankly irrational to present them as cautionary examples.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions. Here's something that is NOT an assumption-- rather than legislating rules about conduct and trying violators in a court of law with normal legal remedies, they have a tribunal which is allowed to arbitrate. Have you seen the exact rules by which they will arbitrate? No, I don't think you have, and neither have I. But I know that gym is out a lot of money, unless the whole story is a lie. Do you think it's a lie?


Quote:Your anti-trans bias is showing by identifying them as "not normal". Not to mention your prior descriptions of such things as bullshit.
A woman with a penis is not normal, because one of the defining features of females in mammals is the presence of a vagina. A penis in a woman's dressing room is not normal, because men have penises, and they are not normally allowed in women's dressing rooms (I'd love to go into one, for obvious reason). You are considering too much the special snowflake, and not the women to whom exposure of male genitalia in any other context would be considered sexual assault.

I'm fine with people thinking or feeling however they want, and I'll call a man "Brenda" and refer to him as "she" if he wants me to. However, to expect the many to conform to the emotional needs of the few is not only oppressive but it fails to meet the basic principle of the greater good.

I know that the lynch mobs of the day are set to pile up on people who express the ideas I'm expressing, and I'm fine with that. But I feel my opinion represents the voice of reason and reality, and I will continue to voice it.
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
Fuck it. Welcome to the ignore list. You're not here to address the actual point of this thread.
I don't believe you. Get over it.
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 11:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote:
(August 8, 2017 at 10:16 pm)Javaman Wrote: Your initial claim was that recent legislation made it a criminal offence in Canada to use the wrong gender pronoun when addessing transgendered people. I pointed out that the claim was false.
Ontario's in Canada.

Quote:Rather than acknowledging the initial claim was wrong, you then shifted the goalposts to suggest there may be repercussions in civil legal jurisdictions, such as the Ontario Human Rights tribunal, if a private individual uses the wrong pronoun when addressing a trans person. Even when reading through the heavily biased sources you provide, it's so unlikely that a private individual would face any repercussions whatsoever for using the wrong pronoun, that it is frankly irrational to present them as cautionary examples.
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions.  Here's something that is NOT an assumption-- rather than legislating rules about conduct and trying violators in a court of law with normal legal remedies, they have a tribunal which is allowed to arbitrate.  Have you seen the exact rules by which they will arbitrate?  No, I don't think you have, and neither have I.  But I know that gym is out a lot of money, unless the whole story is a lie.  Do you think it's a lie?


Quote:Your anti-trans bias is showing by identifying them as "not normal". Not to mention your prior descriptions of such things as bullshit.
A woman with a penis is not normal, and a penis in a woman's dressing room is not normal.  You are considering too much the special snowflake, and not the women to whom exposure of male genitalia in any other context would be considered sexual assault.

I'm fine with people thinking or feeling however they want, and I'll call a man "Brenda" and refer to him as "she" if he wants me to.  However, to expect the many to conform to the emotional needs of the few is not only oppressive but it fails to meet the basic principle of the greater good.

So much wrong to respond to... not sure how to go about it, to be honest.

First, nice to see you acknowledge, in a completely indirect way, that your initial claim was wrong: it is NOT a crime in Canada to use the "wrong" pronoun when addressing transsexuals. Let's get that out of the way first. And yes, Ontario is in Canada, and it's pretty much next to impossible for a Canadian not to be aware of that fact. Still doesn't make incorrect use of pronouns a crime. Can't figure out how you missed that utterly crucial point.

You admit you have no knowledge of the rules an arbitrator must follow when making decisions, but simultaneously conclude that the arbitrator is wrong because the decision cost the gym owner money... umm... what? It doesn't matter what I think is a lie or the truth. That's the whole point of the arbitration process. The arbitration process is very specifically about the application of relevant legislation by independent, knowledgeable experts. The arbitrator concluded the gym was in the wrong. Don't turn the decision into a whole "OMG the LGBTQ community is conducting a Coup of society and everything!" That makes you look like an idiot. The gym owner was in the wrong... no conspiracy needed.

Your comments about what is normal is frankly.... abnormal.
Sporadic poster
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 11:00 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm fine with people thinking or feeling however they want, and I'll call a man "Brenda" and refer to him as "she" if he wants me to.  However, to expect the many to conform to the emotional needs of the few is not only oppressive but it fails to meet the basic principle of the greater good.  

I know that the lynch mobs of the day are set to pile up on people who express the ideas I'm expressing, and I'm fine with that.  But I feel my opinion represents the voice of reason and reality, and I will continue to voice it.

No problem there. I'm wondering how much it puts me out to call him "Brenda" or her "Jimmy". I'm not sure why I would be doing package checks in a public restroom, for that matter -- let me hit the urinal with no splashback and I'm copacetic.

What the hell does any of that hurt me? Does it cost me anything other than the occasional case of rustled jimmies?

As a military firefighter, I can tell you, I didn't care if Stelter or Cardinal fucked girls, guys, or a hot fondue-pot. What mattered to me was Can we extinguish this? Can we get them out before they're crispy critters? Are they competent?

That's the focus of this thread -- not your little embolisms of emotion. I'm willing to bet that if they were pulling your ass out of a crumpled-up car, you wouldn't be asking about their gender identity.

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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 8, 2017 at 11:24 pm)Jesster Wrote: Fuck it. Welcome to the ignore list. You're not here to address the actual point of this thread.

lol yeah cuz this thread has absolutely nothing to do with people's attitudes about transsexuality

(August 8, 2017 at 11:30 pm)Javaman Wrote: You admit you have no knowledge of the rules an arbitrator must follow when making decisions, but simultaneously conclude that the arbitrator is wrong because the decision cost the gym owner money... umm... what? It doesn't matter what I think is a lie or the truth. That's the whole point of the arbitration process. The arbitration process is very specifically about the application of relevant legislation by independent, knowledgeable experts. The arbitrator concluded the gym was in the wrong. Don't turn the decision into a whole "OMG the LGBTQ community is conducting a Coup of society and everything!" That makes you look like an idiot. The gym owner was in the wrong... no conspiracy needed.
"Independent, knowledgeable experts," huh? And who, pray tell, would those be?
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RE: No Trans In The Military Says Trump
(August 9, 2017 at 12:05 am)bennyboy Wrote: lol yeah cuz this thread has absolutely nothing to do with people's attitudes about transsexuality

No. This thread is about the impact of allowing transsexuals to serve openly in the military ... not about your attitude at all (unless, of course, you're in the military, in which case I'll certainly shut up and listen).

Seems like you're the snowflake in this thread, kid. Everyone else is talking, and you're throwing a hissyfit.

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