If evidence for god is in abundance, why is faith necessary?

[ComradeMeow]

What is your definition of faith? I am all ears to hear it.

Also I used the same definition in my post before. I am merely addressing the amount of trust people have in the world despite how obviously dangerous it is. Even people like Dillahunty and Dawkins address this and they get no flak from other atheists. Everybody has or does exhibit some faith in the things they do. 

How can faith be this bothersome toward you? It is a word and I am using it without the baggage of religion. If I called atheism a faith that would be idiotic since it makes no claim or shows no trust without reason. But the fact that people have faith in something not religious really seems to disturb you and beg the question do you even know anything about theism or atheism.

You think because I am an antitheist I have to show irrational hate towards theists? 

I used to be a Muslim and left for that exact reason. The only reason I am an antitheist instead of an atheist is because of the serious danger one religion places the whole world in and as to how that bothers you baffles me. 

You just stated earlier that atheists have no faith and that faith is somehow a religion. How do you expect me to take you seriously?


I will grant the possible fact that maybe you are not reading my posts clearly or that I am not reading your posts clearly. BUT please clarify your position so I do not end up hating you for unfair reasons that could easily be solved. I don't wont to call you a troll if one of us misunderstood the other. 

I think I see the misunderstanding here. I'm using the same definition you outlined in your previous post, but you're making an extreme exaggeration (as I already pointed out) and making a false equivalency between faith as an everyday thing and the trust we put in things based on evidence. I don't need to have faith in gravity for it to keep my ass firmly planted on the ground. We have satellites and all kinds of shit to help us figure out if there's a meteor coming to blow our planet to bits. We take what precautions we can afford to ensure that we can sleep at night without our houses being broken into by strangers and our throats slit while we're at our most vulnerable, and we can put trust in the fact that the odds of something like that happening are about as good as winning the lottery (just for illustration, it takes faith to believe you'll WIN the lottery, not to believe you won't win), and even if someone did break in, they're far more likely to just be there to steal shit and not just randomly harm someone for their sick pleasure.

So if you're saying everyone is motivated by completely irrational fears, you're bogus. We're aware of what can happen and how likely those things are to happen and how to deal with them accordingly. There's no reason to think it's MORE likely for that kind of shit to happen than not, if you manage to survive to be more than one day old. I'm 32, have been hit by reckless drivers while on my bike three times and walked away from each. I've only just taken to wearing a helmet because this most recent time is the only one where I've been injured severely enough to need to go to a hospital. And I've continued to ride the bike ever since. I have ZERO trust in drivers not to hit me but I don't have any other way of getting around and I'm extremely cautious because I understand how moronic people are the second they get behind the wheel of a car. But faith? No, dear, everything about that is EXTREMELY grounded in facts, reasonable expectations and statistics. Just like everything else in life that doesn't revolve around things like religion and other woo, the only places where faith is involved. So please, don't go throwing that word around like it doesn't mean what you seem to be able to describe.

I am not saying this at all. In my first post I was using faith in the most basic of terms. I was using at a belief that people cling to without very good reasons and I compared it to the possibility if not inevitable future that a meteorite will collide with earth one day, granted we don't stop it by some means. I then compared it to the fact that we do not change our lives on the basis of faith either. You already made a comparable point acknowledging the trust we put into our safety. 

I never addressed irrational fears and their motivational effects though. Nor have I ever claimed that everybody experiences faith all throughout their lives. I said the opposite, I said earlier that nobody changes their behavior even though the things they trust the most only are trusted on the basis of faith. Most religious people and even atheists do not realize the amount of faith they put into things that are for the most part bad ideas, political parties are an obvious example of this. 

Also the analogy you have made with your biking incident is another such example of the amount of faith you put into the probability of you not having an accident. You gave up that faith obviously and began wearing a helmet which I give props to you for doing so and you have obviously increased your skepticism of driver's ability to know what they are doing. But saying that faith is a religious concept is ignoring what the word has always meant. Look at how the word is even used in everyday language and see its lack of religious connotation. 

Also you mentioned facts and faith which can't be compared because faith is how a person feels towards something. I can say, "I have faith in your ability to write beautiful poetry" but never would you hear me or anyone say, "I have facts that you are great in your ability write beautiful poetry." You keep giving the word faith an odd religious context which I am not using nor do I think it is appropriate to make it a religious word. I use spirit in the original context and never religious hence whenever I say, "that is spiritually uplifting." I am only using the word in context to life and and not some ethereal floating consciousness.

I personally am a very paranoid person which is why I have a massive hangup about faith though. I am the kind of person that can plan every detail of my life for a whole week and never stray once. The only thing I can leave to faith is my current relationship and the hope I have that I will never be departed from my significant other.

[Astonished]

I think I see the misunderstanding here. I'm using the same definition you outlined in your previous post, but you're making an extreme exaggeration (as I already pointed out) and making a false equivalency between faith as an everyday thing and the trust we put in things based on evidence. I don't need to have faith in gravity for it to keep my ass firmly planted on the ground. We have satellites and all kinds of shit to help us figure out if there's a meteor coming to blow our planet to bits. We take what precautions we can afford to ensure that we can sleep at night without our houses being broken into by strangers and our throats slit while we're at our most vulnerable, and we can put trust in the fact that the odds of something like that happening are about as good as winning the lottery (just for illustration, it takes faith to believe you'll WIN the lottery, not to believe you won't win), and even if someone did break in, they're far more likely to just be there to steal shit and not just randomly harm someone for their sick pleasure.

So if you're saying everyone is motivated by completely irrational fears, you're bogus. We're aware of what can happen and how likely those things are to happen and how to deal with them accordingly. There's no reason to think it's MORE likely for that kind of shit to happen than not, if you manage to survive to be more than one day old. I'm 32, have been hit by reckless drivers while on my bike three times and walked away from each. I've only just taken to wearing a helmet because this most recent time is the only one where I've been injured severely enough to need to go to a hospital. And I've continued to ride the bike ever since. I have ZERO trust in drivers not to hit me but I don't have any other way of getting around and I'm extremely cautious because I understand how moronic people are the second they get behind the wheel of a car. But faith? No, dear, everything about that is EXTREMELY grounded in facts, reasonable expectations and statistics. Just like everything else in life that doesn't revolve around things like religion and other woo, the only places where faith is involved. So please, don't go throwing that word around like it doesn't mean what you seem to be able to describe.

I am not saying this at all. In my first post I was using faith in the most basic of terms. I was using at a belief that people cling to without very good reasons and I compared it to the possibility if not inevitable future that a meteorite will collide with earth one day, granted we don't stop it by some means. I then compared it to the fact that we do not change our lives on the basis of faith either. You already made a comparable point acknowledging the trust we put into our safety. 

I never addressed irrational fears and their motivational effects though. Nor have I ever claimed that everybody experiences faith all throughout their lives. I said the opposite, I said earlier that nobody changes their behavior even though the things they trust the most only are trusted on the basis of faith. Most religious people and even atheists do not realize the amount of faith they put into things that are for the most part bad ideas, political parties are an obvious example of this. 

Also the analogy you have made with your biking incident is another such example of the amount of faith you put into the probability of you not having an accident. You gave up that faith obviously and began wearing a helmet which I give props to you for doing so and you have obviously increased your skepticism of driver's ability to know what they are doing. But saying that faith is a religious concept is ignoring what the word has always meant. Look at how the word is even used in everyday language and see its lack of religious connotation. 

Also you mentioned facts and faith which can't be compared because faith is how a person feels towards something. I can say, "I have faith in your ability to write beautiful poetry" but never would you hear me or anyone say, "I have facts that you are great in your ability write beautiful poetry." You keep giving the word faith an odd religious context which I am not using nor do I think it is appropriate to make it a religious word. I use spirit in the original context and never religious hence whenever I say, "that is spiritually uplifting." I am only using the word in context to life and and not some ethereal floating consciousness.

I personally am a very paranoid person which is why I have a massive hangup about faith though. I am the kind of person that can plan every detail of my life for a whole week and never stray once. The only thing I can leave to faith is my current relationship and the hope I have that I will never be departed from my significant other.

Faith doesn't have to be religious in all contexts, it's simply UNSUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE, which is why I'm so insistent that you not keep insulting every person who doesn't actually do that in their life the way condescending religious fucks do during debates and speeches. Hope and faith are not synonyms either. If you have such a hangup about faith, as you claim, I completely fail to see why you're still using it at all, let alone misusing it so badly in every post we've been discussing it here. Nothing in my life is based on thinking things without some kind of rational evidence-based or reason-based justification. Not remotely comparable to entirely unsupported, irrational judgments about things based on blind faith. If that's something I'm continuing to fail to impress upon you, all I can conclude is that something's not quite right here. If you've still got faith in your life, (or are simply misusing it in applying it to yourself) that's your prerogative, but you shouldn't project that onto others who left that behind long, long ago.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's an equivocative use of the word faith that is, likely, an artifact of your having been religious and both heard and used such an equivocation to make exactly the sorts of comments you're making now.  

I don't change my life based upon a meteor hitting the earth because no change I can make will affect it-NASA, however, jad both the NEO prgram and work groups assigned to come up with a solution.  I do change my life to better align with consequences that will not materialize in my own life - but will in my children's.  I have zero faith in political parties, and I would suggest that the people who approach politics through faith are, likely, faithfully religious as well. People look at the party platform and how it aligns with their own political opinions, the history of a candidates uccess in getting x or y done, and their credibility when it comes to delivering on a campaign promise - or at least attempting it. Then, they pull the lever. Sure, some of them faith their way through it, thinking jesus wants them to vote republican - but hey, those people are nuts, so?

[ComradeMeow]

That's an equivocative use of the word faith that is, likely, an artifact of your having been religious and both heard and used such an equivocation to make exactly the sorts of comments you're making now.  

I don't change my life based upon a meteor hitting the earth because no change I can make will affect it-NASA, however, jad both the NEO prgram and work groups assigned to come up with a solution.  I do change my life to better align with consequences that will not materialize in my own life - but will in my children's.  I have zero faith in political parties, and I would suggest that the people who approach politics through faith are, likely, faithfully religious as well.  People look at the party platform and how it aligns with their own political opinions, the history of a candidates uccess in getting x or y done, and their credibility when it comes to delivering on a campaign promise - or at least attempting it.  Then, they pull the lever.  Sure, some of them faith their way through it, thinking jesus wants them to vote republican - but hey, those people are nuts, so?  

Obviously do not realize I never believed or accept the word faith as a Muslim. It was not even a concept in the religion. Faith did not become a word I understood in religious conversation until I became an atheist and I started studying Christianity, as I never paid attention to churches anyways when I was younger. 

Also you just described what I was stating earlier about faith. The fact you did not change your action is what I mean when I say we have faith in things without good reason. Everyone here seems to be adding a lot of religious baggage to the word I never encountered until New-Agers came along. I am also not claiming that everybody exhibits faith in their life or at least not to a great degree.

Whenever you vote you are exhibiting faith considering the likliness of a politician doing as he says is very low. I am an avid voter as well so I know that for every screwhead I choose the odds are not in my favor although I still partake in the act as if my wildest dreams will come true.

[The Grand Nudger]

Obviously do not realize I never believed or accept the word faith as a Muslim. It was not even a concept in the religion. Faith did not become a word I understood in religious conversation until I became an atheist and I started studying Christianity, as I never paid attention to churches anyways when I was younger. 

uh....huh.

Also you just described what I was stating earlier about faith. The fact you did not change your action is what I mean when I say we have faith in things without good reason. Everyone here seems to be adding a lot of religious baggage to the word I never encountered until New-Agers came along. I am also not claiming that everybody exhibits faith in their life or at least not to a great degree.

I don't need faith not to change my actions.  It simply doesn;t matter whether or not the meteor hits tommorrow or ten million years from now.  Today, I have shit to do  regardless.  No ones "adding baggage" - you're explicitly comparing religious faith to "faith" in some novel sense not attached to religion.  Doing so requires that you babble about shit so disparate from each other that using the same word does not explain or clarify the two different things you're talking about - it simply mangles them into befuddlement.

Whenever you vote you are exhibiting faith considering the likliness of a politician doing as he says is very low. I am an avid voter as well so I know that for every screwhead I choose the odds are not in my favor although I still partake in the act as if my wildest dreams will come true.

Obviously not, if believing in god is faith, what I do when I vote is pretty much the exact opposite of that.  You can use the same word for both all you like and it won't change that fact. That you have unrealistic fantasies about your vote is your own issue.

Even if I were the only person on earth who was more grounded in their decisionmaking and actions than you, that would still render your claim that we all had faith untrue. What are the odds..do you think, that I;m the only person on earth who doesn't live in fantasyland?

[Astonished]

Obviously do not realize I never believed or accept the word faith as a Muslim. It was not even a concept in the religion. Faith did not become a word I understood in religious conversation until I became an atheist and I started studying Christianity, as I never paid attention to churches anyways when I was younger. 

uh....huh.

Also you just described what I was stating earlier about faith. The fact you did not change your action is what I mean when I say we have faith in things without good reason. Everyone here seems to be adding a lot of religious baggage to the word I never encountered until New-Agers came along. I am also not claiming that everybody exhibits faith in their life or at least not to a great degree.

I don't need faith not to change my actions.  It simply doesn;t matter whether or not the meteor hits tommorrow or ten million years from now.  Today, I have shit to do  regardless.  No ones "adding baggage" - you're explicitly comparing religious faith to "faith" in some novel sense not attached to religion.  Doing so requires that you babble about shit so disparate from each other that using the same word does not explain or clarify the two different things you're talking about - it simply mangles them into befuddlement.

Whenever you vote you are exhibiting faith considering the likliness of a politician doing as he says is very low. I am an avid voter as well so I know that for every screwhead I choose the odds are not in my favor although I still partake in the act as if my wildest dreams will come true.

Obviously not, if believing in god is faith, what I do when I vote is pretty much the exact opposite of that.  You can use the same word for both all you like and it won't change that fact.  That you have unrealistic fantasies about your vote is your own issue.

Even if I were the only person on earth who was more grounded in their decisionmaking and actions than you, that would still render your claim that we all had faith untrue.  What are the odds..do you think, that I;m the only person on earth who doesn't live in fantasyland?

Fu...man, I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to clear up this mess.

[ComradeMeow]

uh....huh.

I don't need faith not to change my actions.  It simply doesn;t matter whether or not the meteor hits tommorrow or ten million years from now.  Today, I have shit to do  regardless.  No ones "adding baggage" - you're explicitly comparing religious faith to "faith" in some novel sense not attached to religion.  Doing so requires that you babble about shit so disparate from each other that using the same word does not explain or clarify the two different things you're talking about - it simply mangles them into befuddlement.

I am not remotely comparing religious faith to the word faith at all. I am merely referring to the word faith and its definition. I am also referring to whether or not a person can exhibit faith in something, that's all. You are adding religious overtones and complications to the word which should be not be a problem to anyone. Whether or not you exhibit faith in certain situations is irregardless since we as people have a tendency on making bad decisions or decisions that don't hold up to the greatest tidbits of reasoning.

On top of this is the fact we show great likings to things that are not reasonable to like. The only difference between religious faith and the regular usage of the word faith is nothing. Religion just requires truck loads of it in certain cases. 

Obviously not, if believing in god is faith, what I do when I vote is pretty much the exact opposite of that.  You can use the same word for both all you like and it won't change that fact.  That you have unrealistic fantasies about your vote is your own issue.

Even if I were the only person on earth who was more grounded in their decisionmaking and actions than you, that would still render your claim that we all had faith untrue.  What are the odds..do you think, that I;m the only person on earth who doesn't live in fantasyland?

I never said believing in god is faith, nor did I say all people have faith because that is a blanketing of the word. It is like saying all people are liars when instead you would say that all people have lied. Essentially everything else you are saying at this point has nothing to do with what I said or anything to do with what I am arguing about.

The only thing I am arguing is that faith is not a religious concept and that anybody can show faith. Everyone here seems hellbent on making a simple word a religious tenet of some sort. Like I said before, faith is not even spoken of as Muslim do not accept unreasonability as a precursor to theism. Islamic tradition had the Mu'tazilahi pounding the concept of reasonable theism into the heads of theologians. This is why Islam is reductionist in its mythology and lacks many claims of miracles. 

Most Muslim do not even believe that miracles can be performed by men and Muhammad's death ended this notion of divine acts. So faith is quite antithetical to Islam although it does not change the fact that Islam is unreasonable and immoral in many cases.

---

uh....huh.

I don't need faith not to change my actions.  It simply doesn;t matter whether or not the meteor hits tommorrow or ten million years from now.  Today, I have shit to do  regardless.  No ones "adding baggage" - you're explicitly comparing religious faith to "faith" in some novel sense not attached to religion.  Doing so requires that you babble about shit so disparate from each other that using the same word does not explain or clarify the two different things you're talking about - it simply mangles them into befuddlement.

Obviously not, if believing in god is faith, what I do when I vote is pretty much the exact opposite of that.  You can use the same word for both all you like and it won't change that fact.  That you have unrealistic fantasies about your vote is your own issue.

Even if I were the only person on earth who was more grounded in their decisionmaking and actions than you, that would still render your claim that we all had faith untrue.  What are the odds..do you think, that I;m the only person on earth who doesn't live in fantasyland?

Fu...man, I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to clear up this mess.

Not even a mess you just seem oddly attach to a word that is quite simple.

[The Grand Nudger]

I am not remotely comparing religious faith to the word faith at all. I am merely referring to the word faith and its definition. I am also referring to whether or not a person can exhibit faith in something, that's all. You are adding religious overtones and complications to the word which should be not be a problem to anyone. Whether or not you exhibit faith in certain situations is irregardless since we as people have a tendency on making bad decisions or decisions that don't hold up to the greatest tidbits of reasoning.

On top of this is the fact we show great likings to things that are not reasonable to like. The only difference between religious faith and the regular usage of the word faith is nothing. Religion just requires truck loads of it in certain cases. 

Buddy, who said this?

Everybody exhibits faith in their life, as we all do that the earth won't get hit with a meteor the next day. If we did not we would all be owning bunkers at the moment and only invest in subterranean real estate. Faith is not as real to Christians or Muslim as it is certainty in god's existence and presence in their life.

That'd be you, and then again..... right up above... you insist that the difference between everyone's "faith" and religious faith is nothing.  Religious faith doesn't require or possess an ounce of what you call my "faith", nor have you accurately described my "faith".   

I never said believing in god is faith, nor did I say all people have faith because that is a blanketing of the word. It is like saying all people are liars when instead you would say that all people have lied. Essentially everything else you are saying at this point has nothing to do with what I said or anything to do with what I am arguing about.

So, you're unclear both on what the word refers to in a religious context -and- how it doesn't apply to my voting?  Wonder of wonders.  

The only thing I am arguing is that faith is not a religious concept and that anybody can show faith. Everyone here seems hellbent on making a simple word a religious tenet of some sort. Like I said before, faith is not even spoken of as Muslim do not accept unreasonability as a precursor to theism. Islamic tradition had the Mu'tazilahi pounding the concept of reasonable theism into the heads of theologians. This is why Islam is reductionist in its mythology and lacks many claims of miracles. 

Faith is an explicitly religious descriptor.  Novel uses of the term faith are chosen precisely to evoke the feeling of certitude associated with those religious traditions.  People might tell their spouse "I have faith in you", but, if the phrase is analyzed for meaning...one finds that a person has used the term as a poetic flourish - one does not have faith in their spouse...one has a reasonable expectation in their spouse combined with an abiding love that leads to the use of devotional language otherwise associated with religious tradition.  

I'm aware that many muslims are super sure their faith is reasonable - nevertheless faith still accurately describes their beliefs whereas it still does not accurately describe my voting.  Islam..reductionist..lacking in many miracles....?  If you say so.

Most Muslim do not even believe that miracles can be performed by men and Muhammad's death ended this notion of divine acts. So faith is quite antithetical to Islam although it does not change the fact that Islam is unreasonable and immoral in many cases.

You're pretty bad at identifying where faith is present and where it isn't..that just -might- have something to do with your convoluted and equivocative understanding of the term.  / shrugs

[Astonished]

Did this crap kill this thread? Was that done intentionally like some next-level deep-cover Inception shit?

[Atheist73]

Faith is just a fancy word for magical thinking/make believe. Ask any christian how jesus, when he was taken up into the clouds, how did he breathe oxygen when he was so high up? How did he get through earth's atmosphere without being burned to death? Once in space, how did he breath and how did he get back to sky disneyland?

It takes faith to believe this crap because nothing the bible purports that faith can accomplish...can actually be accomplished in reality.