White supremacists and counter protesters clash in Charlottesville

[Mr.wizard]

My argument wasn't "it's good because it's legal" so thanks for misrepresenting me again. If a town has the right to put up a civil war memorial or statue then they have that right. Whether you find it to be in poor taste is irrelevant to whether or not they have the right.

[Divinity]

I think that it should be left up to a town vote, the residents who make up the town should get to decide how they are represented.

So should it also be for a fucking vote to have a statue of Jesus, or the ten commandments up?  I mean as long as it's by a vote, right?

[Brian37]

The notion that everyone who votes republican deserves to be abandoned because they support Nazis. That sounds a wee bit extreme.

Um this is where people can miss the point, and even well intended liberals can miss the point. It is certainly true that the far right bigots are a minority, the problem is, just like the middle east, that minority is just big enough to cause problems.

45 would have lost without that base and there is no polite way to put it. It is the same problem we see when Muslims say, "Not all" and they are certainly right, "not all", but just enough are. 

Nobody should support Nazis but that does not mean all rust belt whites or rural whites all vote republican either. The democratic party exists in all 50 states regardless. You don't have to support bigots just because you accept others exist surrounded by those same bigots. Just like you don't support Bin Ladin because you support Malala. 


I am not for abandoning the rust belt or everyone in rural America. But it is true still that 45 won because he pandered to some very horrible people to get his win. 

Charllottesville is still a result of 45s campaign of pandering to some very horrible people.

45, and Bannon and the GOP and Rush Limbaugh and Brietbart and even Fox News were selling hate for a long time, and that did empower those sickos in that white nationalist rally and the murder as well.

But no, even in saying that I will not abandon my liberal friend because of an accident of birth. John had no choice whom his parents were or where he was raised. Just like Ayaan and Malala were able to see through the far right in Islam despite being born in theocratic minded nations.

[Mr.wizard]

I think that it should be left up to a town vote, the residents who make up the town should get to decide how they are represented.

So should it also be for a fucking vote to have a statue of Jesus, or the ten commandments up?  I mean as long as it's by a vote, right?

No because it violates the constitution, we dont have laws saying you can only have statues of union soldiers.

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I think towns people should be able to vote on things in their town that are within the law, didnt realize that would ruffle so many feathers.

[Aegon]

Why shouldn't the town have a say, it doesn't violate any constitutional rights and if the people there want the statue then they should be able to keep it, as well as if they don't want it then they they should be able to remove it. Slavery is bad no doubt about it, but that's not the issue here, the issue is should towns not be able to display statues of people who fought for the confederacy.

^^^^^ Is like saying, "Why cant Islamic countries throw gays off rooftops and deny women equal rights?"

Fucking what?

[Brian37]

I think that it should be left up to a town vote, the residents who make up the town should get to decide how they are represented.

So should it also be for a fucking vote to have a statue of Jesus, or the ten commandments up?  I mean as long as it's by a vote, right?

Dont give the fundies any ideas. OH FYI, Oklahoma  had a democratic governor the last time, and they also a few years back rejected a state referendum on ballot allowing the display of the 10 commandments so there is some lick of sanity in valuing separation of Church and State. Still deeply red state but some hope when you consider they rejected allowing the display of the 10 Commandments on public property.

John my friend would want our help and we can let the liberals in red states know we are on their side. I have known him for 16 years and he is a very kind person, much more polite in debate than I am for sure. He is the Redneck atheist good cop. Me, I am more like the bad cop, verbally only though. Point being he wants our help and hates that the coast liberals have written him off. 

He hates Trump as much as any liberal on the coast. He values LGBT rights, is for gay marriage and also hates the GOP economic views. But none of that changes whom his parents are or where he was born or raised. I value John as much as I value any democrat nationwide in any state. 

But yea, he like me would agree with you, since we are not a theocracy religious icons should not be on display on public property. The same people that complain about government mixing with religion in the middle east need to understand that is not something we should want to do here.

[Rev. Rye]

Didn't robert e lee have the same views about blacks and slavery as Lincoln?

His views on slavery were pretty complicated, disliking its effect on white people, but considering it a necessary evil for the slaves themselves, and hoping for a divine end to slavery. Personally, I'd like to keep the statue up, but put a plaque on the base bringing up the basic paradox of the man's career: he did not care for slavery, but because Virginia seceded from the Union, he ended up heading the army of a nation that existed solely to perpetuate slavery (earlier in this thread, I posted three separate passages of the Confederate Constitution that explicitly protected the right to enslave black people), and he fought valiantly for a vile cause.

To quote Douglas Freeman in his biography of Lee: "Lee, in short, was only acquainted with slavery at its best, and he judged it accordingly. At the same time, he was under no illusion regarding the aims of the Abolitionists or the effect of their agitation"

[Brian37]

^^^^^ Is like saying, "Why cant Islamic countries throw gays off rooftops and deny women equal rights?"

Fucking  what?

`What do you mean "Fucking what?"

If you value keeping statues of military figures who supported the cruelty of owning other human beings, the same people who valued beating slaves, and murdering them when they tried to escape,  and value that being aloud to stay on public property, what do you want me to say to that? It would be the same to me as valuing a statue of an Imam who values the arrest and murder of gays. It would be the same as valuing a town putting up a Nazi flag. 

You cannot water down what happened nor should you. The only proper context for the statues of those who fought to keep slavery is in a Museum of what not to do you your fellow human being. No, I will not apologize for holding that position.

[Divinity]

No because it violates the constitution, we dont have laws saying you can only have statues of union soldiers.

It clearly doesn't violate the constitution, given that we have 10 commandment monuments up everywhere.  The only thing that IS against the constitution is allowing ONLY Christian Statues up.  So clearly we should just put everything to a vote.  I'm sure atheists won't mind, much like black people won't mind a vote on honoring a racist fuck who fought to defend slavery.  I mean equal treatment right?  If it's okay to alienate black people by putting up a confederate statue, I don't see why it wouldn't be okay to alienate non-christians by putting up Jesus Statues--as long as the town votes for it.  Just like they can put up a Baphomet statue if people vote for it.

[KevinM1]

I think it's important to note that the various statues in the South celebrating Confederate 'heroes' were constructed, in part, to be an ever present reminder to the blacks about what their station in life was. That, despite slavery being officially ended, that they weren't actually considered to be equal in any sense to Southern whites (an attitude that obviously persists today). Also, the Confederate flag was widely forgotten until the Civil Rights movement, where it became the symbol for those against the movement.

I think it's interesting that we gleefully tear down or otherwise destroy statues and imagery of oppressors in other countries, yet somehow feel like it violates something when the time comes to do it here.