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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 9:04 pm
(This post was last modified: October 23, 2017 at 9:07 pm by Whateverist.)
(October 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (September 13, 2017 at 1:39 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Under what circumstances is value absolute? Under what circumstances is it relative?
In so far as our vision seeks to know from the vision of the absolute, and gain light from light, it is objective.
His was a good question but your response just begs the question: and why is one's vision any better (let alone objective) when one "seeks to know from the vision of the absolute and gain light from light"? All you're doing is being vague and suggestive but so obscure that no one can tell what you're saying.
That how hard anyone 'seeks to know' would in anyway guarantee their obtaining something objective just seems like a stupid idea.
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm
(October 23, 2017 at 9:04 pm)Whateverist Wrote: (October 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In so far as our vision seeks to know from the vision of the absolute, and gain light from light, it is objective.
His was a good question but your response just begs the question: and why is one's vision any better (let alone objective) when one "seeks to know know from the vision of the absolute and gain light from light"? All you're doing is being vague and suggestive but so obscure that no one can tell what you're saying.
That how hard anyone 'seeks to know' would in anyway guarantee their obtaining something objective just seems like a stupid idea.
It is better because one seeks to know through proper true vision base on true judgment while the other just makes a judgment by desires.
And evil is following desires without guidance while good is following guidance and submitting oneself to it.
And what is morality but guidance to act, and it has various degrees, and what is evil, but rebellion against that guidance by a desire based on deceptions.
And what is life but living on clear insight and light, and what is death but dying to ignorance by the armies of deception?
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 9:41 pm
(October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (October 23, 2017 at 9:04 pm)Whateverist Wrote: His was a good question but your response just begs the question: and why is one's vision any better (let alone objective) when one "seeks to know know from the vision of the absolute and gain light from light"? All you're doing is being vague and suggestive but so obscure that no one can tell what you're saying.
That how hard anyone 'seeks to know' would in anyway guarantee their obtaining something objective just seems like a stupid idea.
It is better because one seeks to know through proper true vision base on true judgment while the other just makes a judgment by desires.
That someone earnest tries see by way of true vision no matter what you base it on doesn't guarantee anything, and it certainly doesn't establish it as objective. This makes zero sense.
(October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And evil is following desires without guidance while good is following guidance and submitting oneself to it.
Just one more bald (unsupported) crazy claim.
(October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And what is life ..
I'm beginning to suspect you don't have a clue. You should give up on the ultimate and try instead to achieve even a modicum of adequacy. Baby steps.
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 9:43 pm
I highly doubt that doing what you're told is somehow "the good". It's convenient for the person telling you what to do, sure. I pull that crap on my kids all the time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 9:59 pm
(October 23, 2017 at 9:41 pm)Whateverist Wrote: (October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It is better because one seeks to know through proper true vision base on true judgment while the other just makes a judgment by desires.
That someone earnest tries see by way of true vision no matter what you base it on doesn't guarantee anything, and it certainly doesn't establish it as objective. This makes zero sense.
(October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And evil is following desires without guidance while good is following guidance and submitting oneself to it.
Just one more bald (unsupported) crazy claim.
(October 23, 2017 at 9:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: And what is life ..
I'm beginning to suspect you don't have a clue. You should give up on the ultimate and try instead to achieve even a modicum of adequacy. Baby steps.
LOL, thanks you provided me reflection on a proper argument for God.
1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek the vision of guidance rather than not.
2. If God doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance.
3. If there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance, than it is not better to objectively seek the vision of guidance rather then not.
1, 3. If both these premises are true, we can conclude there are reason to believe one can vision of guidance. Call this premise (4).
4, 2 proves God exists if both premises are true.
And you implicit were stating this, but you didn't know it. I gathered this from your sentiment.
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 10:22 pm
Reality is so much more impressive that your pervert rug merchant's religion, MK.
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 23, 2017 at 11:59 pm
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2017 at 12:00 am by bennyboy.)
(October 23, 2017 at 9:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: LOL, thanks you provided me reflection on a proper argument for God.
1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek the vision of guidance boobledyboo rather than not.
2. If God bibbledybee doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance boobledyboo.
3. If there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance boobledyboo, than it is not better to objectively seek the vision of guidance boobledyboo rather then not.
1, 3. If both these premises are true, we can conclude there are reason to believe one can vision of guidance boobledyboo. Call this premise (4).
4, 2 proves God bibbledybee exists if both premises are true.
And you implicit were stating this, but you didn't know it. I gathered this from your sentiment. FIFY
Feel free to fill in the nonsense non-words of your choice. It all amounts to the same thing.
Can anyone give me applause and an /thread, yo?
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 24, 2017 at 2:20 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2017 at 2:34 am by emjay.)
(October 23, 2017 at 11:59 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (October 23, 2017 at 9:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: LOL, thanks you provided me reflection on a proper argument for God.
1. It is better to sincerely try to objectively seek the vision of guidance boobledyboo rather than not.
2. If God bibbledybee doesn't exist, there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance boobledyboo.
3. If there is no reason to believe one can gain vision of guidance boobledyboo, than it is not better to objectively seek the vision of guidance boobledyboo rather then not.
1, 3. If both these premises are true, we can conclude there are reason to believe one can vision of guidance boobledyboo. Call this premise (4).
4, 2 proves God bibbledybee exists if both premises are true.
And you implicit were stating this, but you didn't know it. I gathered this from your sentiment. FIFY
Feel free to fill in the nonsense non-words of your choice. It all amounts to the same thing.
Can anyone give me applause and an /thread, yo?
Funnily enough that's exactly what I was thinking of doing to try and understand it, but with decidedly less style  ... just using A's and B's for placeholders for word salad:
1. It is better to seek A.
2. If B doesn't exist, THEN there is no reason to think A exists.
3. If there is no reason to think A exists THEN it is better not to seek A.
4. If 1 [It is better to seek A] is true AND 3 [if there is no reason to think A exists then it is better not to seek A] is true THEN there is reason to believe A exists.
THEREFORE: 2 [If B doesn't exist THEN there is no reason to think A exists] PROVES B exists if 1 [It is better to seek A] is true AND 3 [if there is no reason to think A exists then it is better not to seek A] is true.
Still doesn't make any sense and I agree with K that 1 begs the question; why make that assumption that feeds directly into the conclusion?
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 24, 2017 at 7:00 am
(This post was last modified: October 24, 2017 at 7:22 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Technically, you could just use the letter A, as a and b are functionally indistinguishable from each other anyway. Also easier to parse separated into the intended arguments and reordered for conformity. In plain english you could substitute a for god and b for revelation from god. This, at least, helps resolve some of the arguments issues of condition and ambiguity.
If there is no reason to believe in revelation from god, then it's not good to seek revelation from god.
It's good to seek revelation from god.
Therefore there is reason to believe in revelation from god.
If god doesn't exist, then there's no reason to believe in revelation from god.
There's reason to believe in revelation from god.
Therefore god exists.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
October 24, 2017 at 7:39 am
(October 24, 2017 at 7:00 am)Khemikal Wrote: Technically, you could just use the letter A, as a and b are functionally indistinguishable from each other anyway. Also easier to parse separated into the intended arguments and reordered for conformity. In plain english you could substitute a for god and b for revelation from god. This, at least, helps resolve some of the arguments issues of condition and ambiguity.
If there is no reason to believe in revelation from god, then it's not good to seek revelation from god.
It's good to seek revelation from god.
Therefore there is reason to believe in revelation from god.
If god doesn't exist, then there's no reason to believe in revelation from god.
There's reason to believe in revelation from god.
Therefore god exists.
Thanks for that clarification K 
Okay so in the first one (from each of your pairs) the problem is clear; the second premise is unfounded and seems to be the wrong way round with regards to the conclusion; it should be the conclusion?
The second one (and maybe the first... you can judge me on that) is trickier (for me... not you, I'm sure ). There there just seems to be no connection between the premises and the conclusion: ie a negative doesn't prove a positive or something like that.
I'll leave it to you, the expert, but that's my guess at what the logical problems are.
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