About vegans

[tahaadi]

Being vegan is choice.
I will prefer to eat meat, it tastes fantastic.
It is cultural thing, to choose what to eat.

[robvalue]

A flawed argument, but it touches on something inescapably true.  No matter what you choose to eat, many things will die on account of that decision.  Countless more..regardless of what you choose, will suffer and live.

(agriculture is and has been the primary locus of death for plants -and- animals the world over, driving a mass extinction)

Yes, it is unfortunate. I can only apply the principle of least harm. I think it’s also reasonable to assume that the amount of suffering felt by plants, if any, is considerably less than for animals due to the lack of a brain or central nervous system. Even if it isn’t, then I’m still causing less overall by eating them directly.

And as you say, there are unfortunate side effects of the business. I can only do my best. I don’t have any choice, in fact, as I would be physically unable to eat meat at this point. I can barely stand the smell of it.

[The Grand Nudger]

It could very well be the case that the tomato we decide to eat in the dead of winter causes more harm than eating some beef. Eating one thing or another "directly" doesn't change the overall picture of suffering. I've tested the limits of peoples harm based ideas on veganism from time to time. If the harm can be reduced or eliminated with an integrated method and more thoughtful distribution..I generally find that the vegan still sides with the livestock. It's not because of the aggregate of harm that a person refers to harm in their diet. It's their level of comfort with being the person applying it.

I've got a simple rule for ethical eating, on that count. If you couldn't do it...you probably shouldn't be eating it.

[robvalue]

It could very well be the case that the tomato we decide to eat in the dead of winter causes more harm than eating some beef.  Eating one thing or another "directly" doesn't change the overall picture of suffering.

Even if that’s true, meat eaters don’t typically avoid eating the same kind of things I do anyway, so they’d probably still eat the tomato along with beef.

Investigating the source of produce is important, but I admit I don’t have the energy to fully canvas everything. I just try and do my best with what I’ve got, which isn’t much.

[The Grand Nudger]

The only way to have some confidence in what you eat is to know the person who grows it. We could all do that more than we do.

[bennyboy]

For me, the sentience of the animal is a big deal. Cows are basically big dogs. If I dont need to eat mammal meat I won't.

I was never a huge fan of lobster. Too expensive. Too much work, honestly. Ever order a whole lobster? I feel like I was on a demolition project.

Keeping in mind that I'm vegetarian, with leanings toward veganism, there's one thing to consider in regard to this argument: where do vegetable foodstuffs come from, and where does cattle feed come from?

I'm quite sure that big farms use huge machinery that will mulch the ground and almost anything in it-- ground-nesting birds, voles and mice, snakes, and so on. And then you introduce the idea of pesticides. So it seems to me that even eating vegetables involves the likely suffering and deaths of many animals.

The best case scenario would be hand-grown organic crops, though even then I'm not sure that tilling your land once a year wouldn't harm ground animals. So I change my mind-- the best scenario would be industrial food factories using algae grown in hydroponic solutions designed for optimum nutrition-- textured to feel enough like food to be palatable. In fact, I think this is really the only way to really protect animals from harm while still providing sufficient nutrition. Or you could grow plants in an artificial environment-- big 50-floor food factories sufficiently sealed to prevent even mice from getting in there and being inadvertently harmed (good luck with that).

Given these two options are impossible (and they are right now, if you intend to feed an entire population), then I'd say free-grazing animals like deer are likely to reduce suffering. If you kill a very large deer or elk, your family will eat for quite a long time. Because you are not feeding it grain (which would involve killing the same voles and so on as if you ate the grain yourself), then the mortal cost of the meat is relatively small.

The other side of things would be to decide that animals under a certain level of sentience don't matter. Then, we live on clams, maybe cockroaches, stuff like that.

[The Valkyrie]

Vegan taste like tofu.



So I’m told.

[Bob Kelso]

Vegan taste like tofu.



So I’m told.

Medium rare steak tastes like heaven.

[The Grand Nudger]

The best case scenario would be hand-grown organic crops, though even then I'm not sure that tilling your land once a year wouldn't harm ground animals.  

No-till.   Hydro.  Greenhouse. 

Given these two options are impossible (and they are right now, if you intend to feed an entire population), then I'd say free-grazing animals like deer are likely to reduce suffering.  If you kill a very large deer or elk, your family will eat for quite a long time.  Because you are not feeding it grain (which would involve killing the same voles and so on as if you ate the grain yourself), then the mortal cost of the meat is relatively small.

Grass fed beef, free range poultry (legitimately free range, not the marketing sticker, lol), pond raised freshwater and marine products.  

There are options that we can exercise to make our food more consistent with our values, whatever they may be.  The existence of a producer who you can feel confident in when it comes to making methodological choices in line with an assumed set of values is only limited by community support.  Talk to your neighbors and like minded friends.  Find a producer, become one.

[Fireball]

Vegan taste like tofu.



So I’m told.

Medium rare steak tastes like heaven.

You left out the sauteed button mushrooms and bleu cheese sprinkles!  

Put a baked potato and some broccoli florets cooked al dente next to it, and transcend to the level above xtian heaven. I think I've figured out today's dinner menu.