List of reasons to believe God exists?

[Jehanne]

Religion offers no unique moral truths, different than those espoused in naturalistic moral systems.  If CL (or, anyone else) can name one, please do!

Giving tithes to the church.

That's not necessarily a moral virtue!  As an atheist, I give to the Salvation Army, though, and so, nice try!

[Mystic]

Religion offers no unique moral truths, different than those espoused in naturalistic moral systems.  If CL (or, anyone else) can name one, please do!

I would say religion sees morality for what it is while doing away with religion one uses morality for their purposes and ignores it for their purposes, and mixes and mashes falsehood and truth,  good and evil, in a giant mess, and what can be more evil than that?

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Wallym, in this thread I presented an argument about knowledge of morality.


That is in a purely naturalistic perspective, we would not be able through out history to know right and wrong, good and evil, praise and condemnation.

We would not know if it was as you say biological impulses we have no control over, or if there is a great trial of darkness and light.

Whatever we discover scientifically now that might prove free-will, we would not know in the past, if there was no God, whether we had free-will.

Now going back to the premise, if we have objective moral facts, it's due to morality being real.

It is like you said, if it was made up and just made up reality, we can't know anything about it.

But since we know it must be real and not simply imaginary (and surely it is only imaginary if there is no spiritual world but that is a different argument) for it to have moral facts, that in itself is a moral fact.

Going to premise 1. If premise 1 is true, than it's conclusion is proven.

That is "If moral facts exist, then morality is real". 

That itself is a moral fact, if it were true, than it would be true that morality is true.
 
Since people agreed on 1 and you agreed on it, than there is no point of changing your mind. Go with what you initially know because everyone can in their rebellion against submitting to God deny every premise.

Other Atheists agreed 1 was logical as well but disagreed on premise 2.

But premise one contains a secret weapon, it is a moral fact itself!

[Haipule]

You can always use hypothetical possible worlds to prove things.

I disagree for the reasons I said.  Nothing about a reality that is not our own can be assumed.  That's the whole point of God in the first place.  To have a being that doesn't play by the rules we observe in our reality to explain things we couldn't otherwise explain.  So you're free to make up whatever you want and there's no way to argue for it being true or false, because we don't have access to the hypothetical reality.  

We can speculate for fun.  We can try to apply the rules of our own reality to the hypothetical reality.  But that doesn't meet any standards of proof.  It's just guessing.

"Nothing about a reality that is not our own can be assumed."

Nothing about your own relative reality can be "assumed". Everything within our relative reality should also NEVER be denied. Including our own subjective morality! We just have to run with it. Since, according to God, ALL men are liars (including Paul whom wrote that).

We all reach a point in our lives where we realize that where not alone here. That is a base of operations. As we all seek truth which exists beyond a perceived, and very limiting "accepted base norm", in a 360 degree circle, and each continuing to push the limits in any pursuit of truth, then we should all come back to base to learn from each other so that we can all continue to push the limits in our own direction with information learned from someone else going 180, 90, 45 degrees away from us. And us teaching them. So that, we ourselves, and them themselves, can continue to push any invented limits!

IOW's I'll teach you cooking beyond the "accepted" norm if you'll teach me physics beyond the "accepted" norm. But we'll have to keep secrets!

[Angrboda]

Going to premise 1. If premise 1 is true, than it's conclusion is proven.

That is "If moral facts exist, then morality is real". 

That itself is a moral fact, if it were true, than it would be true that morality is true.
 
Since people agreed on 1 and you agreed on it, than there is no point of changing your mind. Go with what you initially know because everyone can in their rebellion against submitting to God deny every premise.

Other Atheists agreed 1 was logical as well but disagreed on premise 2.

But premise one contains a secret weapon, it is a moral fact itself!

Premise one is a fact about morality, not itself a moral fact, you dumbass.

[Edwardo Piet]

Reasons to believe God exists.

1. . . . .

[possibletarian]

Giving tithes to the church.

That's not necessarily a moral virtue!  As an atheist, I give to the Salvation Army, though, and so, nice try!

In many countries the Salvation Army are the only theistic organisation that have earned universal respect, i suspect mainly because of their very visible, and most of all very practical social outreach programs. I give to the SA too.

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Oh hang on, I can do this too

1) If god exists, evidence shows he is the same as no god.
2) life and nature proceeds exactly as if there is no god.
3) therefore god exists.

[Jehanne]

Religion offers no unique moral truths, different than those espoused in naturalistic moral systems.  If CL (or, anyone else) can name one, please do!

I would say religion sees morality for what it is while doing away with religion one uses morality for their purposes and ignores it for their purposes, and mixes and mashes falsehood and truth,  good and evil, in a giant mess, and what can be more evil than that?

If there was only one religion, then, maybe, you would have a valid point, but, of course, there are a multitude of religious beliefs and their associated moral codes.  In Islam, for instance, it was not uncommon for a father to have his son put to death for the most of trivial offenses, but, of course, no one in the West believes in that sort of behavior any more.

[The Grand Nudger]

That is in a purely naturalistic perspective, we would not be able through out history to know right and wrong, good and evil, praise and condemnation.

That's exactly as silly as it sounds.

We would not know if it was as you say biological impulses we have no control over, or if there is a great trial of darkness and light.

It's neither.

Whatever we discover scientifically now that might prove free-will, we would not know in the past, if there was no God, whether we had free-will.

Whether or not a god exists free will does or doesn't in it's own right.

I see things like the above constantly on these boards;

"But if there's no god, what about these other things I believe in?" - as if a person were negotiating with the cosmos.  If there's no god, you either have those other things you believe in or you don't, same as ever...and no amount of heckling with the universe on the issue of fairies will change it one way or another.

Taking a more devout tack, the explanation for any of the items above is not allah. Insisting so, if you believe in such things.... is to do a disservice to a god, to discredit it's work. Imagining that lazy platitudes might adequately describe the intricate wonders produced by the nature of this world and it's inhabitants. If there is a god, it's far bigger than the paltry nonsense you've convinced yourself of.

[Edwardo Piet]

That's not necessarily a moral virtue!  As an atheist, I give to the Salvation Army, though, and so, nice try!

In many countries the Salvation Army are the only theistic organisation that have earned universal respect, i suspect mainly because of their very visible, and most of all very practical social outreach programs. I give to the SA too.

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Oh hang on, I can do this too

1) If god exists, evidence shows he is the same as no god.
2) life and nature proceeds exactly as if there is no god.
3) therefore god exists.

1. God is whatever is beyond our understanding.
2. There are things beyond our understanding.
3. Therefore God exists.

4. God does not have a mind.
5. God is not a creator.
6. God is not a deity.
7. "God" is a pointless fucking word. Why not just say "whatever is beyond our understanding".

[Godscreated]

 In Abraham's time men knew there were about 6000 stars, yet God told Abraham they were innumerable. So the God of Abraham knew more than Abraham and all other people.

GC

If you're using the Christian God's alleged interaction with a human as proof for the existence of the Christian God then you've skipped a few steps.

I was showing that the God of creation new exactly what was in the universe and that man did not create Him. The universe is proof of God, that is what He has stated.

GC

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You're an idiot and first class at that, you might impress your fellow atheist but with me.... well you're an idiot.

GC

Friend: If you read a little closer you would find that I am a Christian. I was mocking someone whom mocked the authorship of Genesis without a reasonable justification. But, your right, I am a first class idiot. I love Jesus and the Word of God--passionately! I just don't like to see it belittled. If that make me an idiot? amEn--SO-BE-IT!

 Being that you put yes as your religious belief doesn't qualify you to be recognized as a Christian. If you are mocking me for what I see Genesis as then you're backing up. I do not belittle Jesus nor the Bible, I have staked my life on them both, the later because it leads me to the former and the former because He leads me into eternal life and a relationship with Him.

GC