Christianity is Dead, Long live the rEvolution!

[Fake Messiah]

I said choke to death.

Sorry, I forgot to explain to people like you that don't know shit: ER is pretty recent invention, before it children choked. Like in medieval times only 1 in 10 children lived to be 10 years old.

and you haven't explained the other things I mentioned.

Actually that's the only thing that you hang to from my argument, let me remind you I mentioned: men's testicles outside which can easily be castrated (unlike rhinos which have them inside) and women that shit from their vaginas after hard labor (Obstetric fistula) or people that have to wear glasses or our throat that is made in such a way that we choke easily when we eat (unlike in dolphins) or that we have pathway for making vitamin C, but it isn't finished so we die out of scurvy unlike cats that god seems to like more or poorly designed back that we all have and are frequently in pain because they aren't made very well.

The design was perfect before the fall, afterwards we fell under God's curse and suffer from it till this day.

What there was second creation? What kind of Bible are you reading?

So cat's can produce their own vitamin C, it's because the can't eat those things they need to get their vitamin C.

Cat can eat but it just chooses not to, because it doesn't have to. Let me remind you of hundreds of thousands of people that died because of it.

I've shown how a person could not taste very well if they can't inhale air through their mouths, so God's design is a good one.

You just showed that god couldn't design better throat or better tasting buds.

I have shown you and the others here that you have no idea what you are talking about

All that you have shown is that all the books in the world are wasted on you because you are a fanatic that clings to his beliefs to ancient fairy tales and everything you read you ignore and distort in order to comply to your primitive worldview.

[SteveII]

You are avoiding the point because it destroys yours. I'll post it again:

2. Has science disproved Adam and Eve? Again, no. But here's the thing: I don't even have to argue that point because you wrongly assume that Christianity hinges on the Doctrine of Original Sin. Christianity hinges on everyone sinning (a fact that cannot be disputed). In fact, the doctrine of original sin has a wide variety of positions to choose from:

Many apologies, Steve. I was in a rush, read the first part and only answered that. If I understand you correctly, your question is about the sin of all of humanity being the important focus of xtianity as this is what Christ suffered for and bore on his shoulders. I will address this question with scripture because that is of most meaning to a xtian.

From Genesis 3:16-19

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Sorry about the KJV translation but it is my personal favourite. So here's the thing. Until this point, Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden as immortals, in perfect peace and harmony. It is only after the eating of the forbidden fruit that god made Eve able to bear children as a punishment for eating the fruit and for enticing Adam to do the same. Adam was punished with toil and hardship. So humanity's struggle on earth, its sin, suffering and pain is initiated by this single event. This is why it is pivotal in the xtian mythology.

Christ came to earth to bear the sins of humanity but those sins would not exist were if not for Adam and Eve's original sin.

I hope I have now answered your question adequately.

No, it does not. 

First, your argument to succeed --which is evolution has invalidated Christianity-- you need at least two things to be true: 1) proof there was no Adam and Eve at any time and 2) that Christianity requires a literal reading of Gen 1-3.

1. I don't believe you have that proof at all, but for the sake of this post, let's assume you are right. 

2. In the US (probably the most conservative group of Christians on the planet) only 24% believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. If we project that over the 2.3 billion on the planet, that means there are somewhere in the neighborhood 1.7 billion your line of reasoning would not apply to. What if the Adam/Eve story was metaphorical? Do you think that man does not have sin nature? Redemption is still required. The message of the NT still applies 100%.

So, your argument can be more properly rephrased as:

If a prospective Christian decides that he must be a Bible literalist (as to Genesis 1-3) or nothing AND he happens to study the Doctrine of Original Sin and finds John Calvin's position the most convincing AND he thinks that science has disproven any Adam and Eve AND there are no other reasons Christianity appeals to him, THEN he will not become a Christian and THEREFORE Christianity "is dead". 

Your understanding of Christianity is so simplistic. You post these threads with the titles that promise some big theme and then repeatedly fail to deliver. When are you going to learn that you are not intellectually equipped or knowledgeable enough to pull that off? Perhaps you should start posting threads that ask questions instead of the empty claims--and learn something.

Well, if by simplistic you mean literal, then I plead guilty your honour! There is no other way to read the bible. Otherwise, xtianity is a billion people's interpretation of iron-age writings. It could be anything.

Hopefully we are learning through this discussion...

Your insistence that Gen 1-3 must be read literal is simply not true. Fun fact: Do you know that Gen 1-3 is written in a much older Hebrew and in a different style than the rest of Genesis? How does that fit in your thesis when we don't even know who wrote it?

I did not mean that your understanding of Christianity was literal. I meant simplistic. You continually overshoot in your grand thread titles. This is a great example. I actual think there was a literal Adam/Eve at some time in the past. However, because of your overreaching, hyperbole and the consistent fact that your premises do not support your conclusion, I didn't even have to argue about that to show your whole argument is crap.

[Bow Before Zeus]

Many apologies, Steve. I was in a rush, read the first part and only answered that. If I understand you correctly, your question is about the sin of all of humanity being the important focus of xtianity as this is what Christ suffered for and bore on his shoulders. I will address this question with scripture because that is of most meaning to a xtian.

From Genesis 3:16-19


Sorry about the KJV translation but it is my personal favourite. So here's the thing. Until this point, Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden as immortals, in perfect peace and harmony. It is only after the eating of the forbidden fruit that god made Eve able to bear children as a punishment for eating the fruit and for enticing Adam to do the same. Adam was punished with toil and hardship. So humanity's struggle on earth, its sin, suffering and pain is initiated by this single event. This is why it is pivotal in the xtian mythology.

Christ came to earth to bear the sins of humanity but those sins would not exist were if not for Adam and Eve's original sin.

I hope I have now answered your question adequately.

No, it does not. 

First, your argument to succeed --which is evolution has invalidated Christianity-- you need at least two things to be true: 1) proof there was no Adam and Eve at any time and 2) that Christianity requires a literal reading of Gen 1-3.

1. I don't believe you have that proof at all, but for the sake of this post, let's assume you are right. 

2. In the US (probably the most conservative group of Christians on the planet) only 24% believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. If we project that over the 2.3 billion on the planet, that means there are somewhere in the neighborhood 1.7 billion your line of reasoning would not apply to. What if the Adam/Eve story was metaphorical? Do you think that man does not have sin nature? Redemption is still required. The message of the NT still applies 100%.

Hey Steve, this is great! Let's establish some ground rules that will allow us to discuss this topic with hopefully come to some sort of outcome one way or the other.

1. Evolution is a scientific fact. I am not going to debate evolution. The vast majority of scientists agree the facts of evolution and even some major religious organisations have thrown in the towel and accepted the fact of evolution. You might not agree with this but for the sake of this discussion, you need to accept it.
2. If evolution is a fact then there was no such thing as a "first" human being. The children of each generation are the same species as the parents - changes are so gradual that they cannot be noticed from generation to generation. Richard Dawkins has a great description of this in a thought experiment he does in one of his books - The Magic of Reality. To save you having to read the book, here is a 4 minute video of Professor Dawkins explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ClZROoyNM
3. The whole argument for the death of xtianity that I propose in the OP therefore hinges on taking the bible literally. So our discussion therefore should be confined as to whether this is the logical or reasonable way to read the bible.
4. The discussion is to be held with mutual respect for each other. I will not call your arguments crap and nor shall you mine. No derogatory put-downs, only reasoned argument.

If you agree with those 4 ground rules above, give me time to grab my single malt scotch whiskey and by Cuban cigar and let's sit down to have an exciting discussion about this!

With respect,
BBZ

[Godscreated]

I said choke to death.

Sorry, I forgot to explain to people like you that don't know shit: ER is pretty recent invention, before it children choked. Like in medieval times only 1 in 10 children lived to be 10 years old.

Hey and I mean hey stupid, just because many children die during those times it doesn't mean many die from choking, you need to get real.

and you haven't explained the other things I mentioned.

Actually that's the only thing that you hang to from my argument, let me remind you I mentioned: men's testicles outside which can easily be castrated (unlike rhinos which have them inside) and women that shit from their vaginas after hard labor (Obstetric fistula) or people that have to wear glasses or our throat that is made in such a way that we choke easily when we eat (unlike in dolphins) or that we have pathway for making vitamin C, but it isn't finished so we die out of scurvy unlike cats that god seems to like more or poorly designed back that we all have and are frequently in pain because they aren't made very well.

You are losing ... no you have lost your mind.

The design was perfect before the fall, afterwards we fell under God's curse and suffer from it till this day.

What there was second creation? What kind of Bible are you reading?

The more you write the less coherent you sound, you might need to check into that ER you mentioned above.

So cat's can produce their own vitamin C, it's because the can't eat those things they need to get their vitamin C.

Cat can eat but it just chooses not to, because it doesn't have to. Let me remind you of hundreds of thousands of people that died because of it.

I've shown how a person could not taste very well if they can't inhale air through their mouths, so God's design is a good one.

You just showed that god couldn't design better throat or better tasting buds.

Okay smart guy just how should the throat and taste bubs work, I want deep details on the whole process.

I have shown you and the others here that you have no idea what you are talking about

All that you have shown is that all the books in the world are wasted on you because you are a fanatic that clings to his beliefs to ancient fairy tales and everything you read you ignore and distort in order to comply to your primitive worldview.

 I've shown you the good science behind those things you blame the God you do not even believe in for doing things wrong. You are so self absorbed and bias you can't see the truth even when you're smacked in the face with it. Blind and stupid, you are pitiful and need serious help. I'm done with this conversation in which you made claims and never presented any information to defend your criticisms. 

GC

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I do not care if there name is Bob, evolution is not viable.

GC

If evolution isn't viable then how does hydrogen become new elements?  And if evolution isn't viable why does the Bible say that evolution is a fact?

The Bible only speaks to creation and hydrogen contains no information, like you said it's just an element.

GC

[JackRussell]

So the 2 Isomeric forms of Hydrogen are not 'informationally' different?

[SteveII]

No, it does not. 

First, your argument to succeed --which is evolution has invalidated Christianity-- you need at least two things to be true: 1) proof there was no Adam and Eve at any time and 2) that Christianity requires a literal reading of Gen 1-3.

1. I don't believe you have that proof at all, but for the sake of this post, let's assume you are right. 

2. In the US (probably the most conservative group of Christians on the planet) only 24% believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. If we project that over the 2.3 billion on the planet, that means there are somewhere in the neighborhood 1.7 billion your line of reasoning would not apply to. What if the Adam/Eve story was metaphorical? Do you think that man does not have sin nature? Redemption is still required. The message of the NT still applies 100%.

Hey Steve, this is great! Let's establish some ground rules that will allow us to discuss this topic with hopefully come to some sort of outcome one way or the other.

1. Evolution is a scientific fact. I am not going to debate evolution. The vast majority of scientists agree the facts of evolution and even some major religious organisations have thrown in the towel and accepted the fact of evolution. You might not agree with this but for the sake of this discussion, you need to accept it.
2. If evolution is a fact then there was no such thing as a "first" human being. The children of each generation are the same species as the parents - changes are so gradual that they cannot be noticed from generation to generation. Richard Dawkins has a great description of this in a thought experiment he does in one of his books - The Magic of Reality. To save you having to read the book, here is a 4 minute video of Professor Dawkins explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ClZROoyNM
3. The whole argument for the death of xtianity that I propose in the OP therefore hinges on taking the bible literally. So our discussion therefore should be confined as to whether this is the logical or reasonable way to read the bible.
4. The discussion is to be held with mutual respect for each other. I will not call your arguments crap and nor shall you mine. No derogatory put-downs, only reasoned argument.

If you agree with those 4 ground rules above, give me time to grab my single malt scotch whiskey and by Cuban cigar and let's sit down to have an exciting discussion about this!

With respect,
BBZ

4. Mutual respect? Do I need to remind you of the post titles in your inaugural month on AF? No matter. I understand the concept to be lopsided here at AF. 

3. Yes, your argument for the death of Christianity does hinge on Gen 1-3 being taken literally. 

i. Evolution has disproved Adam/Eve
ii. Christianity requires Adam/Eve's Original Sin
Therefore Evolution has disproved Christianity. 

Without the second premise, your argument falls apart. Since most Christians do not believe Gen 1-3 to be literal and the doctrine of Original Sin has a wide range of views (and obviously not as pivotal as you thought), it was a pretty simple thing to defeat it. Why not literal? Like I mentioned--this is not a new idea.  Augustine 1600 years ago did not believe that there was a literal 6-day creation. We don't know who wrote Gen 1-3. It is poetic in nature. It has light being made before the sun. A bunch of reasons. A literal 6-day creation is not a new belief, but it has never had the prominence it has enjoyed in the last 50 years with the fundamentalist movement. 

Like I mentioned, I think there was an Adam and Eve of some type in ancient history. I don't know how they were created and I certainly don't know when. I have no proof so I am not going to base an argument on it. 

Christianity requires every person to have an unavoidable sin nature. It does not require that Adam ate an apple to get it.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Sorry, I forgot to explain to people like you that don't know shit: ER is pretty recent invention, before it children choked. Like in medieval times only 1 in 10 children lived to be 10 years old.

Hey and I mean hey stupid, just because many children die during those times it doesn't mean many die from choking, you need to get real.

and you haven't explained the other things I mentioned.

Actually that's the only thing that you hang to from my argument, let me remind you I mentioned: men's testicles outside which can easily be castrated (unlike rhinos which have them inside) and women that shit from their vaginas after hard labor (Obstetric fistula) or people that have to wear glasses or our throat that is made in such a way that we choke easily when we eat (unlike in dolphins) or that we have pathway for making vitamin C, but it isn't finished so we die out of scurvy unlike cats that god seems to like more or poorly designed back that we all have and are frequently in pain because they aren't made very well.

You are losing ... no you have lost your mind.

The design was perfect before the fall, afterwards we fell under God's curse and suffer from it till this day.

What there was second creation? What kind of Bible are you reading?

The more you write the less coherent you sound, you might need to check into that ER you mentioned above.

So cat's can produce their own vitamin C, it's because the can't eat those things they need to get their vitamin C.

Cat can eat but it just chooses not to, because it doesn't have to. Let me remind you of hundreds of thousands of people that died because of it.

I've shown how a person could not taste very well if they can't inhale air through their mouths, so God's design is a good one.

Okay smart guy just how should the throat and taste bubs work, I want deep details on the whole process.

I have shown you and the others here that you have no idea what you are talking about

All that you have shown is that all the books in the world are wasted on you because you are a fanatic that clings to his beliefs to ancient fairy tales and everything you read you ignore and distort in order to comply to your primitive worldview.

 I've shown you the good science behind those things you blame the God you do not even believe in for doing things wrong. You are so self absorbed and bias you can't see the truth even when you're smacked in the face with it. Blind and stupid, you are pitiful and need serious help. I'm done with this conversation in which you made claims and never presented any information to defend your criticisms. 

GC

---

---

If evolution isn't viable then how does hydrogen become new elements?  And if evolution isn't viable why does the Bible say that evolution is a fact?

The Bible only speaks to creation and hydrogen contains no information, like you said it's just an element.

GC

The Bible gives an example of actual evolution in Wisdom 19:18-19 (CEB) = "18 If we are careful to observe events, we can see just how the elements of the universe are transformed. It’s the same transformation that happens when someone changes the sounds that a harp makes by changing the key while continuing to play the same melody. 19 In this way, land animals were changed into underwater creatures, while animals that swam in the waters now moved onto the land."

[Godscreated]

---

Hey and I mean hey stupid, just because many children die during those times it doesn't mean many die from choking, you need to get real.



You are losing ... no you have lost your mind.



The more you write the less coherent you sound, you might need to check into that ER you mentioned above.

Cat can eat but it just chooses not to, because it doesn't have to. Let me remind you of hundreds of thousands of people that died because of it.


Okay smart guy just how should the throat and taste bubs work, I want deep details on the whole process.



 I've shown you the good science behind those things you blame the God you do not even believe in for doing things wrong. You are so self absorbed and bias you can't see the truth even when you're smacked in the face with it. Blind and stupid, you are pitiful and need serious help. I'm done with this conversation in which you made claims and never presented any information to defend your criticisms. 

GC

---

---

The Bible only speaks to creation and hydrogen contains no information, like you said it's just an element.

GC

The Bible gives an example of actual evolution in Wisdom 19:18-19 (CEB) = "18 If we are careful to observe events, we can see just how the elements of the universe are transformed. It’s the same transformation that happens when someone changes the sounds that a harp makes by changing the key while continuing to play the same melody. 19 In this way, land animals were changed into underwater creatures, while animals that swam in the waters now moved onto the land."

 That's not in the Bible I study and I do not know what Bible that came from.

GC

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The Bible gives an example of actual evolution in Wisdom 19:18-19 (CEB) = "18 If we are careful to observe events, we can see just how the elements of the universe are transformed. It’s the same transformation that happens when someone changes the sounds that a harp makes by changing the key while continuing to play the same melody. 19 In this way, land animals were changed into underwater creatures, while animals that swam in the waters now moved onto the land."

 That's not in the Bible I study and I do not know what Bible that came from.

GC

Thanks for admitting that you don't know Jack Shit about the Bible.  

That book is part of the Apocrypha that was integeral to every Bible version until the 1880s when a couple of English guys, Westcott & Hort, decided to toss it.  The Protestants went along with them but the Catholics told them to shove it.  So you have been reading an incomplete Bible.  Your Cliff Notes version is only about 132 years old.

[Godscreated]

 That's not in the Bible I study and I do not know what Bible that came from.

GC

Thanks for admitting that you don't know Jack Shit about the Bible.  

That book is part of the Apocrypha that was integeral to every Bible version until the 1880s when a couple of English guys, Westcott & Hort, decided to toss it.  The Protestants went along with them but the Catholics told them to shove it.  So you have been reading an incomplete Bible.  Your Cliff Notes version is only about 132 years old.

 Wrong, wrong wrong.

GC