(December 19, 2017 at 4:34 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(December 19, 2017 at 2:43 am)Bow Before Zeus Wrote: Read the history. He was a great man. The stuff in museums proves everything. It is what led Darwin to write his seminal work. Read that if you want to understand it. Or if it is too heavy to read, then read Richard Dawkins' "The Greatest Show on Earth". That is an amazing description of the mechanisms of evolution. I cannot "prove" evolution to you in a few paragraphs. That ship has sailed my friend. It is accepted in the scientific community. Even the Catholic church accepts it. They have stopped fighting fact - it is a fruitless enterprise to do so in the face of insurmountable evidence.

I've read it and there is only assumption to start with and assumption to end with, you've been sold a bill of goods that is worthless unless you can show that new information can be added to DNA through natural processes. Until that happens the rest is just.... nothing. The Catholic Church has compromised on other things, this one is just another one they are wrong on, the Pope and his Bishops and Cardinals are not scientist they are just trying to appease the nonbelievers. Evidence does not equal proof, evidence can be made to fit whatever someone desires when they deceive the people.

Quote:We haven't been through anything, you have only presented assumptions. Evolution hasn't been proven so how in the world do you expect it to disprove Adam and Eve. None of that has been disproved not in the slightest. One day you will see that the Christians were correct, then what?

BBZ Wrote:Evolution is fact that is accepted by scientists and religious organisations. Only a few die-hard fundies still cling onto creationism. You need to stop reading the babble and start reading scientific papers if you are to understand evolution.

Evolution can't be fact because it hasn't been proven to be true and you certainly can't or you would have already done so. I've studied with professors and scientist and they have shown all the weaknesses and down falls evolution has, your blind bias keeps you believing the lies you're being feed.

Quote:  I didn't threaten you, I'm telling you what the Bible says. I have no power to judge you for your sin so I can't threaten you if I wanted to. I am warning you of what the future holds for those who are not forgiven. God says that the man who does not fear is a fool.

BBZ Wrote:Your warnings still smell of witch-doctor potion.

  You are sniffing at the wrong end of things.

GC

Science is not assumption nor is it respected by the uneducated. For the uneducated, science is like pearl before swine. There is nothing I can say to convince someone like yourself that science is fact and the mythology of xtianity is delusion.

I am not going to defend science because it does not need my defense. If you are a science denier, why don't you turn your computer off, throw your phone in the bin, turn off all electrical devices and go live in a cave and live a hunter-gatherer existence. Not prepared to do that? Then don't deny scientific fact.

(December 18, 2017 at 10:51 pm)Bow Before Zeus Wrote:

(December 18, 2017 at 9:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: Okay, so you didn't mean "dead", you meant invalidated. Same thing.

But you still need to answer my second point: https://atheistforums.org/post-1674319.html#pid1674319

Does science disprove the Adam and Eve myth? That's what the original post was about! Evolution quite clearly disproves an Adam and Eve. There was no such thing as a "first human". This is a scientific fact.

You are avoiding the point because it destroys yours. I'll post it again:

2. Has science disproved Adam and Eve? Again, no. But here's the thing: I don't even have to argue that point because you wrongly assume that Christianity hinges on the Doctrine of Original Sin. Christianity hinges on everyone sinning (a fact that cannot be disputed). In fact, the doctrine of original sin has a wide variety of positions to choose from:

Quote: Wrote:Original sin, also called ancestral sin,[1] is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.[2] This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

So, your argument can be more properly rephrased as:

If a prospective Christian decides that he must be a Bible literalist (as to Genesis 1-3) or nothing AND he happens to study the Doctrine of Original Sin and finds John Calvin's position the most convincing AND he thinks that science has disproven any Adam and Eve AND there are no other reasons Christianity appeals to him, THEN he will not become a Christian and THEREFORE Christianity "is dead". 

Your understanding of Christianity is so simplistic. You post these threads with the titles that promise some big theme and then repeatedly fail to deliver. When are you going to learn that you are not intellectually equipped or knowledgeable enough to pull that off? Perhaps you should start posting threads that ask questions instead of the empty claims--and learn something.

(December 19, 2017 at 9:12 am)SteveII Wrote:

(December 18, 2017 at 10:51 pm)Bow Before Zeus Wrote: Does science disprove the Adam and Eve myth? That's what the original post was about! Evolution quite clearly disproves an Adam and Eve. There was no such thing as a "first human". This is a scientific fact.

You are avoiding the point because it destroys yours. I'll post it again:

2. Has science disproved Adam and Eve? Again, no. But here's the thing: I don't even have to argue that point because you wrongly assume that Christianity hinges on the Doctrine of Original Sin. Christianity hinges on everyone sinning (a fact that cannot be disputed). In fact, the doctrine of original sin has a wide variety of positions to choose from:

Many apologies, Steve. I was in a rush, read the first part and only answered that. If I understand you correctly, your question is about the sin of all of humanity being the important focus of xtianity as this is what Christ suffered for and bore on his shoulders. I will address this question with scripture because that is of most meaning to a xtian.

From Genesis 3:16-19

Quote:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Sorry about the KJV translation but it is my personal favourite. So here's the thing. Until this point, Adam and Eve lived in the garden of Eden as immortals, in perfect peace and harmony. It is only after the eating of the forbidden fruit that god made Eve able to bear children as a punishment for eating the fruit and for enticing Adam to do the same. Adam was punished with toil and hardship. So humanity's struggle on earth, its sin, suffering and pain is initiated by this single event. This is why it is pivotal in the xtian mythology.

Christ came to earth to bear the sins of humanity but those sins would not exist were if not for Adam and Eve's original sin.

I hope I have now answered your question adequately.

Quote:

Quote: Wrote:Original sin, also called ancestral sin,[1] is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.[2] This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

So, your argument can be more properly rephrased as:

If a prospective Christian decides that he must be a Bible literalist (as to Genesis 1-3) or nothing AND he happens to study the Doctrine of Original Sin and finds John Calvin's position the most convincing AND he thinks that science has disproven any Adam and Eve AND there are no other reasons Christianity appeals to him, THEN he will not become a Christian and THEREFORE Christianity "is dead". 

Your understanding of Christianity is so simplistic. You post these threads with the titles that promise some big theme and then repeatedly fail to deliver. When are you going to learn that you are not intellectually equipped or knowledgeable enough to pull that off? Perhaps you should start posting threads that ask questions instead of the empty claims--and learn something.

Well, if by simplistic you mean literal, then I plead guilty your honour! There is no other way to read the bible. Otherwise, xtianity is a billion people's interpretation of iron-age writings. It could be anything.

Hopefully we are learning through this discussion...

(December 19, 2017 at 9:00 pm)Godscreated Wrote: Good science is awesome and I like it very much, I have to use it in my woodworking and when I was a heat and are tech. However evolution is the mythology and Christianity holds the truth to all things.
  i could live out as a hunter gatherer I've done those kinds of things for many years, unlike most atheist on this forum I could survive a disaster and do without all the modern conveniences we enjoy, they are not my life.

GC

Bolded:
Incorrect.

Even though evolution does not have all the answers yet, scientifically it is the most credible answer. All Christianity can offer is lies based on a need for a comforting answer. The gap of knowledge answer placed forward by religion is no longer cutting it in a world where people are no longer being duped by suspending disbelief.