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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 3:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2018 at 3:48 pm by FFaith.)
(January 5, 2018 at 3:35 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (January 5, 2018 at 3:15 pm)FFaith Wrote: The people with the extreme views are the ones that don't want the cops to shoot, because they don't care about police dying.
Or because we do, in addition to caring about whether or not a police officer is made to kill someone, as well as whether or not some poor fucker gets shot by the police.
That seems to be a major disconnect.
I was referring to the people who don't want the cops to shoot unless they are 100 % sure that the perp has a gun, and that it is being pointed at them and about to be used. That's an unreasonable standard, and the people arguing that position simply do not care one way or the other whether the cops live or die. Of course the police should not shoot unless they think their lives are at risk. Some cops shoot too soon, and those cops aren't fit to be cops.
Maybe some time in the future the cops won't have to kill many people, but the guns in the hands of the citizens will have to disappear first, and that's not happening anytime soon.
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2018 at 4:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 5, 2018 at 3:47 pm)FFaith Wrote: I was referring to the people who don't want the cops to shoot unless they are 100 % sure that the perp has a gun, and that it is being pointed at them and about to be used. That's an unreasonable standard, and the people arguing that position simply do not care one way or the other whether the cops live or die. Of course the police should not shoot unless they think their lives are at risk. Some cops shoot too soon, and those cops aren't fit to be cops. It's not an unreasonable standard, it's a high standard - and it's achievable. Mistakes will still occur, we know this.
Again, I do care about cops, what situations we put them in, whether that gets them shot, whether it compels them to shoot, and whether someone gets shot by a cop.
Quote:Maybe some time in the future the cops won't have to kill many people, but the guns in the hands of the citizens will have to disappear first, and that's not happening anytime soon.
Another variation of "the people are the problem". Well, okay, the amount of guns in peoples hands is a problem. So, slide the ratio around. 1/10 works in the UK, but it's different here. How about 1 gun per car, two men to a car? That's 50/50.
If reducing the number of guns in people hands will have an effect x, wouldn't that also apply to the guns in cops hands?
Heres a stat-
2016. 136 police officers died in the line of duty, includiong traffic fatalies (largely drunk driving) and dead drug sniffing dogs. Not even kidding. 64 were firearm related. In that same year, they shot and killed at least 936 people.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 4:51 pm
(January 5, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (January 5, 2018 at 3:47 pm)FFaith Wrote: I was referring to the people who don't want the cops to shoot unless they are 100 % sure that the perp has a gun, and that it is being pointed at them and about to be used. That's an unreasonable standard, and the people arguing that position simply do not care one way or the other whether the cops live or die. Of course the police should not shoot unless they think their lives are at risk. Some cops shoot too soon, and those cops aren't fit to be cops. It's not an unreasonable standard, it's a high standard - and it's achievable. Mistakes will still occur, we know this.
Again, I do care about cops, what situations we put them in, whether that gets them shot, whether it compels them to shoot, and whether someone gets shot by a cop.
Quote:Maybe some time in the future the cops won't have to kill many people, but the guns in the hands of the citizens will have to disappear first, and that's not happening anytime soon.
Another variation of "the people are the problem". Well, okay, the amount of guns in peoples hands is a problem. So, slide the ratio around. 1/10 works in the UK, but it's different here. How about 1 gun per car, two men to a car? That's 50/50.
If reducing the number of guns in people hands will have an effect x, wouldn't that also apply to the guns in cops hands?
Heres a stat-
2016. 136 police officers died in the line of duty, includiong traffic fatalies (largely drunk driving) and dead drug sniffing dogs. Not even kidding. 64 were firearm related. In that same year, they shot and killed at least 936 people. Yes, it is an extremely unreasonable standard and is pro-dead cop. It can be very reasonable to shoot and kill if a perp is asked to keep their hands where they can be seen and they reach for something in their pocket.
It doesn't make sense to take guns away from police. Try taking guns away from police in the US right now and see how many of them quit in protest. They need guns to defend their lives. I think cops should keep their guns, even if the citizens lose their gun rights.
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 4:57 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2018 at 4:59 pm by Brian37.)
(January 5, 2018 at 4:51 pm)FFaith Wrote: (January 5, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It's not an unreasonable standard, it's a high standard - and it's achievable. Mistakes will still occur, we know this.
Again, I do care about cops, what situations we put them in, whether that gets them shot, whether it compels them to shoot, and whether someone gets shot by a cop.
Another variation of "the people are the problem". Well, okay, the amount of guns in peoples hands is a problem. So, slide the ratio around. 1/10 works in the UK, but it's different here. How about 1 gun per car, two men to a car? That's 50/50.
If reducing the number of guns in people hands will have an effect x, wouldn't that also apply to the guns in cops hands?
Heres a stat-
2016. 136 police officers died in the line of duty, includiong traffic fatalies (largely drunk driving) and dead drug sniffing dogs. Not even kidding. 64 were firearm related. In that same year, they shot and killed at least 936 people. Yes, it is an extremely unreasonable standard and is pro-dead cop. It can be very reasonable to shoot and kill if a perp is asked to keep their hands where they can be seen and they reach for something in their pocket.
It doesn't make sense to take guns away from police. Try taking guns away from police in the US right now and see how many of them quit in protest. They need guns to defend their lives. I think cops should keep their guns, even if the citizens lose their gun rights.
Why doesn't it make sense to take guns away from cops? Very few in Japan have them.
Not saying right now that could work in America. But the reason Japan's cops don't need them is because their population isn't gun obsessed.
I agree cops need guns RIGHT NOW, but any sane cop will tell you they hope to never use lethal force. Problem I keep saying post after post, website after website, year after year is their use of firearms WILL NOT go down if they constantly have to face an armed public and the only training they get is "fear the worst and shoot first'.
It isn't just cops use of firearms, but the public too. Fear is being sold to both cops and society and so are firearms and that is what is creating the mistrust between cops and society.
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:08 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2018 at 5:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 5, 2018 at 4:51 pm)FFaith Wrote: Yes, it is an extremely unreasonable standard and is pro-dead cop. It can be very reasonable to shoot and kill if a perp is asked to keep their hands where they can be seen and they reach for something in their pocket. Other countries law enforcement officers seem to be able to handle such situations without attendant executions, nor are they "pro-dead cop" for arranging their law enforcement agencies to institutionally implement precisely this standard.
Quote:It doesn't make sense to take guns away from police. Try taking guns away from police in the US right now and see how many of them quit in protest. They need guns to defend their lives. I think cops should keep their guns, even if the citizens lose their gun rights.
If you say so. The idea that cops need guns to defend themselves is, imo, based on serial police dramas...not the reality of 9-5 police work. In reality, police here (and elsewhere) do not need those guns, many go without them, and the problem of guns and cops and people being shot..in the us..squarely falls on the shoulders of cops by 64-936. Furthe rirony being that a couple of those 64..were shot and killed by -other- cops..on accident.
Telling me that the problem with taking lessons from other successful law enforcement strategies - which we already are-, is that it will result in a bunch of cops quitting is telling me that you think a bunch of cops will hold law enforcement hostage in this country over their ability to shoot a bitch dead. I don't think that's true. There was resistence to less-than-lethals too, but properly trained equipped, and now acclimated I doubt that any police force can articulate just why they previously took issue to it.
I suspect the same will one day be true of our down-gunned cops. I;m not suggesting in any of this that the police department have no armed response units. No guns. I'm suggesting that the average patroller doesn't, in reality, need a pistol, and obviously the number of armed units can be specifically tailored to the incidence of crime in an area which would justify their presence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:21 pm
Nutbars, 225,000,000 guns. Police, 0. Great idea.
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:22 pm
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:39 pm
(January 5, 2018 at 4:57 pm)Brian37 Wrote: (January 5, 2018 at 4:51 pm)FFaith Wrote: Yes, it is an extremely unreasonable standard and is pro-dead cop. It can be very reasonable to shoot and kill if a perp is asked to keep their hands where they can be seen and they reach for something in their pocket.
It doesn't make sense to take guns away from police. Try taking guns away from police in the US right now and see how many of them quit in protest. They need guns to defend their lives. I think cops should keep their guns, even if the citizens lose their gun rights.
Why doesn't it make sense to take guns away from cops? Very few in Japan have them.
Not saying right now that could work in America. But the reason Japan's cops don't need them is because their population isn't gun obsessed.
I agree cops need guns RIGHT NOW, but any sane cop will tell you they hope to never use lethal force. Problem I keep saying post after post, website after website, year after year is their use of firearms WILL NOT go down if they constantly have to face an armed public and the only training they get is "fear the worst and shoot first'.
It isn't just cops use of firearms, but the public too. Fear is being sold to both cops and society and so are firearms and that is what is creating the mistrust between cops and society.
Terrorist attacks. Knife attacks. These people need to be put down, and a gun is the best way to put them down.
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:41 pm
(This post was last modified: January 5, 2018 at 5:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 5, 2018 at 5:39 pm)FFaith Wrote: Terrorist attacks. Tactical response units....and..how many beat cops do you think foil terrorist plots anyway (or, for that matter, actually prevent a more mundane crime-in-progress in the first place...). As in, in reality, not on netflix?
Quote:Knife attacks. These people need to be put down, and a gun is the best way to put them down.
If you say so, other law enforcement agencies strongly disagree. So does ours..frankly. Shooting someone is supposed to be a last resort, even here. Someone getting shot is not, at all..the best way to do anything. It's the worst possible outcome of police work.... even if it was a really bad hombre.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Under no circumstance should cops KILL
January 5, 2018 at 5:47 pm
If someone actually pulls a gun on a cop that's one thing. Can't blame the cop for that one.
Its when they fantasize about the possibility that a guy crawling along a hotel floor has a gun that the line needs to be drawn.
And when there are six cops standing there with their guns out and the guy is holding a screwdriver don't give me this fucking shit about how they "feared for their lives." They just wanted to kill someone.
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