Posts: 23917
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
150
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 11:22 am
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 11:23 am by Whateverist.)
(February 15, 2018 at 9:47 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (February 14, 2018 at 8:14 pm)Whateverist Wrote: This is all to argue that the past can't be infinite, therefore God made it on His cosmic watchmaker's bench.
Not really. Thomas Aquinas, at least, felt it was indeterminate and did not matter with respect to the 2W once you account for the distinction between accidentally and essentially ordered sequences. Why do you believe it impossible to discuss have a purely metaphysical question without delving into the theological implications? Seems to me like yer itchin' for a fight.
Fight? No, an interminable argument initiated by our local theists regarding the possibility of an eternal past that is motivated by their need to think it was God who turned the light switch on all at once. But you'd have to go back to that thread to understand what motivated Steve to reshape the issue in a form he thought more salvable. Of course that hasn't worked so well thus far.
Posts: 8719
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
53
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
As another member noted - eternal and infinite are not synonymous. Eternal is a quality; infinite is a quantity. Eternal is the quality of something for which time has no meaning, like the Principle of Non-Contradiction. The PNC is universally true independent of time or even if there wasn't any time/space at all. Infinite describes the quantity of something, like the amount of patience it takes to read posts by Little Rik.
Posts: 69266
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:20 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A distinction that makes no difference. Infinite time is eternal time. There is an eternity of moments in every minute just as there are infinite points in every inch. The definition of eternal is, literally..infinite time.......lol?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 19670
Threads: 178
Joined: July 31, 2012
Reputation:
91
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:22 pm
Also remember that, as long as everything happens at the speed of light in vacuum, time doesn't pass.
Posts: 3045
Threads: 14
Joined: July 7, 2014
Reputation:
14
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:28 pm
Posts: 35257
Threads: 122
Joined: February 22, 2011
Reputation:
159
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:40 pm by Angrboda.)
(February 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: As another member noted - eternal and infinite are not synonymous. Eternal is a quality; infinite is a quantity. Eternal is the quality of something for which time has no meaning, like the Principle of Non-Contradiction. The PNC is universally true independent of time or even if there wasn't any time/space at all. Infinite describes the quantity of something, like the amount of patience it takes to read posts by Little Rik.
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Regardless, using eternal in the sense of time having no meaning for something is common in theological discussion of God, I'm just not sure that one can come up with a sensible metaphysics in which to ground such a notion. Failing that, the notion of eternal that you are promoting here seems little more than empty words.
Oxford English Dictionary Wrote:eternal,
A. adj.
1.
a. Infinite in past and future duration; without beginning or end; that always has existed and always will exist: esp. of the Divine Being.
b. By those who hold that time, i.e. the relation of succession, pertains merely to things as viewed by finite intelligence, and not to absolute reality, the word as used of God or His actions is interpreted in the sense: Not conditioned by time; not subject to time relations.
Phrases in which the word has properly this sense are, however, often used in religious language without any definite recognition of the metaphysical theory which they imply, being taken as figurative expressions of the divine omniscience.
Posts: 2417
Threads: 5
Joined: January 3, 2018
Reputation:
22
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:36 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:45 pm by polymath257.)
Posts: 8719
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
53
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:44 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:46 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(February 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: (February 15, 2018 at 12:14 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: As another member noted - eternal and infinite are not synonymous. Eternal is a quality; infinite is a quantity. Eternal is the quality of something for which time has no meaning, like the Principle of Non-Contradiction. The PNC is universally true independent of time or even if there wasn't any time/space at all. Infinite describes the quantity of something, like the amount of patience it takes to read posts by Little Rik.
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Regardless, using eternal in the sense of time having no meaning for something is common in theological discussion of God, I'm just not sure that one can come up with a sensible metaphysics in which to ground such a notion. Failing that, the notion of eternal that you are promoting here seems little more than empty words.
Oxford English Dictionary Wrote:eternal,
A. adj.
1.
a. Infinite in past and future duration; without beginning or end; that always has existed and always will exist: esp. of the Divine Being.
b. By those who hold that time, i.e. the relation of succession, pertains merely to things as viewed by finite intelligence, and not to absolute reality, the word as used of God or His actions is interpreted in the sense: Not conditioned by time; not subject to time relations.
Phrases in which the word has properly this sense are, however, often used in religious language without any definite recognition of the metaphysical theory which they imply, being taken as figurative expressions of the divine omniscience.
Yes, I am using connotation (b). I see (a) as common usage and confusing for a philosophical discussion. I do not see it as "empty words" to say, for example, that there are eternal truths.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
132
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: February 15, 2018 at 12:47 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(February 15, 2018 at 11:22 am)Whateverist Wrote: Fight? No, an interminable argument initiated by our local theists regarding the possibility of an eternal past that is motivated by their need to think it was God who turned the light switch on all at once. But you'd have to go back to that thread to understand what motivated Steve to reshape the issue in a form he thought more salvable. Of course that hasn't worked so well thus far.
The whole "There had to be a beginning... but not for God because... he makes stuff and stuff." thing just makes me wanna laugh my man nipples right off.
Posts: 69266
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Actual Infinity in Reality?
February 15, 2018 at 12:48 pm
(February 15, 2018 at 12:44 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I do not see it as "empty words" to say, for example, that there are eternal truths.
What's the difference between an eternal truth and truth?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
![[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg?rlkey=x1nmxbwrp...pouidnfvtl]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/scl/fi/a6a72vica8gsyddmkhtxp/extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg?rlkey=x1nmxbwrpk9dzrupouidnfvtl)
