Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[Huggy Bear]

I should also point out that the OP is mistaken in this regard.

First and Foremost I will state that it is of utmost importance to remember than any stories in the Norse Tales are second hand stories, passed down, and are not in fact the word of Odin himself.  Any stories told are simply allegory or misunderstandings of an ancient group of people.  Therefore, I will not accept any evidence that debunks Norse Tales--because they are just that.  I can easily dismiss all claims to the contrary as "Allegory" much like our Christian friends do.  And I have good reason to--after all, the Norse tales aren't the word of Odin himself, like the Bible claims to be the word of god.

I have never claimed that any of the stories in the Bible were pure allegory, I have even went so far to issue a challenge to anyone who thinks they are capable of debunking the Bible scientifically to do so.

Name one thing in the Bible that scientific knowledge has debunked.

People believe the Bible can be debunked scientifically, yet they fail at debunking it

People claim the Bible is contradictory, yet they fail at proving contradictions.

So why is the OP afraid of Odin being put under the same scrutiny?

If I believe the Bible to be truth then I believe that it can withstand scrutiny.

Lies can be debunked, truth can't

[GrandizerII]

No, victory conditions are who has more evidence corresponding better to one's position than the other. You're failing big time so far, and I note you haven't bothered to address my challenge yet.

Who are you to say what the victory conditions are or aren't?

Because the same evidence could be argued as supporting opposite sides, if we don't first assign proper likelihoods to the evidence given each competing position. Not trying to be difficult here for the sake of it. This is how it should be done.

Regardless, if you want to do it your way, then what Jorm said.

[LastPoet]

I believe that we should just give the best debater award ahead of time. He might strech too much.

[Minimalist]

Name one thing in the Bible that scientific knowledge has debunked.

Child's play.

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matty 27

I don't think we even need scientific knowledge for that.  A little common sense would do it which I realize is in short supply among religitards.

[Edwardo Piet]

Odin is not a necessary being. So it doesn't matter. Next.

Yeah! Totes!

That's why personally I believe in Odin 2.0. He's exactly the same as Odin except he created the universe and part of his definition is that he's necessary for the universe to exist.

[GrandizerII]

I should also point out that the OP is mistaken in this regard.

First and Foremost I will state that it is of utmost importance to remember than any stories in the Norse Tales are second hand stories, passed down, and are not in fact the word of Odin himself.  Any stories told are simply allegory or misunderstandings of an ancient group of people.  Therefore, I will not accept any evidence that debunks Norse Tales--because they are just that.  I can easily dismiss all claims to the contrary as "Allegory" much like our Christian friends do.  And I have good reason to--after all, the Norse tales aren't the word of Odin himself, like the Bible claims to be the word of god.

I have never claimed that any of the stories in the Bible were pure allegory, I have even went so far to issue a challenge to anyone who thinks they are capable of debunking the Bible scientifically to do so.

Name one thing in the Bible that scientific knowledge has debunked.

People believe the Bible can be debunked scientifically, yet they fail at debunking it

People claim the Bible is contradictory, yet they fail at proving contradictions.

So why is the OP afraid of Odin being put under the same scrutiny?

If I believe the Bible to be truth then I believe that it can withstand scrutiny.

Lies can be debunked, truth can't

Because the truth of Odin isn't found in books, but in the essence of His Divinity. How dare you think you could even put Almighty Odin under scrutiny! He is not a small tiny god like your little Yahweh ...

Also, feel free to post a new thread about Bible contradictions. I'm up for the challenge of providing with what I see to be clear contradictions in the Bible.

[Huggy Bear]

I will respond to this by stating that every single major mythology and even the doctrines of some Christian denominations evolved from ancient Babylonian pagan religion.

The peoples of Ancient Mesopotamia, being the cradle of civilization changed from monotheism to polytheism, for example, Abraham was from the city of Ur which was a city of Sumeria, Abraham left the city in search of the one true God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

Everyone is familiar with the tower of Babel (which meant the 'gate of God', 'Bab' meaning gate and 'El' meaning God, and more importantly "El Shaddai" is another name for the one God) story where at one time everyone spoke the same language but were confused and ended up speaking many different languages, but the same could be said with religion, one God turned in to many gods.

As people migrated out, the Babylonian pagan religion spread throughout the world by way of Egypt, Greece and Rome.

For example Both Horus and Odin sacrifice one of their eyes
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11548-nimrod

Who is Nimrod?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/...901_q.html

Therefore it is my position that the Norse god Odin is derived from previously held concepts and can reasonably be dismissed as being real.

I would be interested to hear a comparison of the Babylonian  Myth with the Norse Mythology  Huggy.  The Norse Myths do incorporate some  aspects of Greek Mythology, but it's tangential.  For example there are three fate like creatures weaving the past, present and future at the bottom of the world tree.  There is a Hell like hot world,  but it's not where the damned are sent.  It will however, in the end engulf all worlds at the end.  Odin hung from a tree in agony with a spear in his side, but it was not for anyone's sins.  He traded pain for the ability to read magic runes.  He traded an eye for wisdom.  The sky is a dome, abet made from a giants skull.  But there isn't much one to one correspondence of gods or tales about them.

Odin is no Zeus. He is not the strongest, but the wisest.  He is the creator of men whom he and his brothers equipped to life on their own.  Asengaard is a fortress not a place where gods sup ambrosia.

The Norse Gods are locked in a war to keep the giants from taking over all worlds.  It a battle they are doomed to lose as the Frost Giants continue to grow and are thus winning the arms race.  But even if the gods did somehow win, the great world tree that as you might guess, supports all worlds, is doomed.  There are poisoned wells as its roots.  It will die and fall.  There is no salvation.  The gods are not eternal.  They can be and sometimes are killed.  The gods must pay real prices for things. They suffer long term loss for the common good.  They are also for the most part loyal husband's and wives who do not stray. Odin and Thor do not spend their time seducing mortal women.

But the stories about these gods are often trickster tales concerning Loki, how is part giant.  He is not a creature to be worshiped. He is happily amoral and too clever by half.  He gets the gods into and out of much trouble.  One goddess is unmarried.   Many tales revolve around giants wanting to marry her, not rape, marry.  She is no Diana deviated to virginity.  The problem is not marriage itself, but the potential bridegroom.

It is a dark world view in the long run where what you do in the present is what matters.  The end is predetermined.  Sacrifice , strength,  and wisdom are admired and demonstrated.  

It is precisely this no free lunch aspect of the Norse Gods that makes them more real than, either the Greek gods, or the early Hebrew myths.

Obviously, The Norse peoples received a clearer vision of the real state of affairs than the muddied softer visions of the Greeks and Babylonians.  These Norse Gods are real.

You've already traced Norse Mythology to the Greeks, now time to trace the Greeks to Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις), in Greek mythology, is the god of beauty and desire, and is a central figure in various mystery religions

The Greek Ἄδωνις (Greek pronunciation: [ádɔːnis]), Adōnis was a borrowing from the Canaanite word ʼadōn, meaning "lord", which is related to Adonai, one of the names used to refer to the god (אֲדֹנָי) of the Hebrew Bible and still used in Judaism to the present day. Syrian Adonis is Gauas or Aos, akin to Egyptian Osiris, the Semitic Tammuz and Baal Hadad, the Etruscan Atunis and the Phrygian Attis, all of whom are deities of rebirth and vegetation (see life-death-rebirth deity).

Adonis is the Hellenized form of the Phoenician word "adoni", meaning "my lord". It is believed that the cult of Adonis was known to the Greeks from around the sixth century B.C., but it is unquestionable that they came to know it through contact with Cyprus.  Around this time, the cult of Adonis is noted in the Book of Ezekiel in Jerusalem, though under the Babylonian name Tammuz

Adonai the name used to refer to God, became Adonis who was formerly know as the god Tammuz in Babylon.

[Edwardo Piet]

I've always loved the way theists make up magic words and phrases and think that's the end of a discussion.

"Necessary being?"

WTF?

I now posit a necessary invisible intangible cauliflower that permanently rests on everyone's genitals. You not only can't disprove it but it must exist because it's necessary by definition, otherwise it wouldn't be a necessary invisible intangible cauliflower! It's a necessary one not an unnecessary one so it MUST rest on y'all's genitals! I mean, DUH!

My necessary invisible intangible cauliflower has never tickled my balls, of course.... because it's intangible so I can't feel it!

[GrandizerII]

I would be interested to hear a comparison of the Babylonian  Myth with the Norse Mythology  Huggy.  The Norse Myths do incorporate some  aspects of Greek Mythology, but it's tangential.  For example there are three fate like creatures weaving the past, present and future at the bottom of the world tree.  There is a Hell like hot world,  but it's not where the damned are sent.  It will however, in the end engulf all worlds at the end.  Odin hung from a tree in agony with a spear in his side, but it was not for anyone's sins.  He traded pain for the ability to read magic runes.  He traded an eye for wisdom.  The sky is a dome, abet made from a giants skull.  But there isn't much one to one correspondence of gods or tales about them.

Odin is no Zeus. He is not the strongest, but the wisest.  He is the creator of men whom he and his brothers equipped to life on their own.  Asengaard is a fortress not a place where gods sup ambrosia.

The Norse Gods are locked in a war to keep the giants from taking over all worlds.  It a battle they are doomed to lose as the Frost Giants continue to grow and are thus winning the arms race.  But even if the gods did somehow win, the great world tree that as you might guess, supports all worlds, is doomed.  There are poisoned wells as its roots.  It will die and fall.  There is no salvation.  The gods are not eternal.  They can be and sometimes are killed.  The gods must pay real prices for things. They suffer long term loss for the common good.  They are also for the most part loyal husband's and wives who do not stray. Odin and Thor do not spend their time seducing mortal women.

But the stories about these gods are often trickster tales concerning Loki, how is part giant.  He is not a creature to be worshiped. He is happily amoral and too clever by half.  He gets the gods into and out of much trouble.  One goddess is unmarried.   Many tales revolve around giants wanting to marry her, not rape, marry.  She is no Diana deviated to virginity.  The problem is not marriage itself, but the potential bridegroom.

It is a dark world view in the long run where what you do in the present is what matters.  The end is predetermined.  Sacrifice , strength,  and wisdom are admired and demonstrated.  

It is precisely this no free lunch aspect of the Norse Gods that makes them more real than, either the Greek gods, or the early Hebrew myths.

Obviously, The Norse peoples received a clearer vision of the real state of affairs than the muddied softer visions of the Greeks and Babylonians.  These Norse Gods are real.

You've already traced Norse Mythology to the Greeks, now time to trace the Greeks to Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis

Adonis (/əˈdɒnɪs, əˈdoʊnɪs/; Greek: Ἄδωνις), in Greek mythology, is the god of beauty and desire, and is a central figure in various mystery religions

The Greek Ἄδωνις (Greek pronunciation: [ádɔːnis]), Adōnis was a borrowing from the Canaanite word ʼadōn, meaning "lord",[2][3] which is related to Adonai, one of the names used to refer to the god (אֲדֹנָי) of the Hebrew Bible and still used in Judaism to the present day.[3] Syrian Adonis is Gauas[4] or Aos, akin to Egyptian Osiris, the Semitic Tammuz and Baal Hadad, the Etruscan Atunis and the Phrygian Attis, all of whom are deities of rebirth and vegetation (see life-death-rebirth deity).

Adonis is the Hellenized form of the Phoenician word "adoni", meaning "my lord". It is believed that the cult of Adonis was known to the Greeks from around the sixth century B.C., but it is unquestionable that they came to know it through contact with Cyprus.  Around this time, the cult of Adonis is noted in the Book of Ezekiel in Jerusalem, though under the Babylonian name Tammuz

Adonai the name used to refer to God, became Adonis who was formerly know as the god Tammuz in Babylon.

Have you actually read some Greek mythology and Norse mythology? Judging from your posts, most likely not. There are vast differences between the two collections of myths, regardless of some few similarities.

[Edwardo Piet]

Adonai the name used to refer to God, became Adonis who was formerly know as the god Tammuz in Babylon.

There's no evidence that Odin never existed thereby you can't disprove him.

I think it's fucking hilarious that any theist thinks he can disprove other gods.

You know what's most hilarious of all? The Bible is full of contradictions so many versions of the Christian God are impossible.... but Odin isn't impossible at all.

A God that knows the future but also gives you free will to do other than what he knows you will do... is impossible. That's just one example of a version of the Christian God that is impossible. Odin isn't declared to be both omniscient and give people the ability to go against what he knows.... if any God can be disproved.... it's the Biblical God.

Another version of the Christian God that is impossible is any interpretation of the Christian God's omnipotence that means he can create square circles or anything else logically impossible.