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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:14 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2018 at 12:58 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(March 16, 2018 at 9:17 am)SteveII Wrote: As I explained above, you are zeroing in on one aspect of causation that is obviously too restrictive when talking about thing that may have happened prior to the first moments of the universe.
1. Everything that begins to exist has an efficient cause.
How do you know this?
Also, this is just silliness if you think about it for more than five minutes:
Quote:Matter: the change or movement which is determined by the material that composes the moving or changing things. For a table, that might be wood; for a statue, that might be bronze or marble.
Versus:
Quote:Agent: a change or movement's efficient or moving "cause", consists of things apart from the thing being changed or moved, which interact so as to be an agency of the change or movement. For example, the efficient cause of a table is a carpenter, or a person working as one, and according to Aristotle the efficient cause of a boy is a father.
These two things are indistinguishable with regard to any physical thing within the universe. I could just as easily reason that the carpenter is the material cause for a table, seeing as humans are made of the same ‘material’; atoms; as wood. Along with everything else that exists in the universe for that matter. What is the material cause of a sand dune? What is the efficient cause? How can you tell the difference?
Perhaps the universe’s efficient cause is also a material cause.
As Vulc explained in the beginning, the KCA commits a composition fallacy. There is no getting around this.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:28 pm
(March 16, 2018 at 12:14 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 9:17 am)SteveII Wrote: As I explained above, you are zeroing in on one aspect of causation that is obviously too restrictive when talking about thing that may have happened prior to the first moments of the universe.
1. Everything that begins to exist has an efficient cause.
How do you know this?
I bet the answer will be logic.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:29 pm
(March 16, 2018 at 10:29 am)Grandizer Wrote: You say "efficient cause" is necessary because intuition, then I say "material cause" is also necessary because intuition!
Everything that begins to exist must have a material cause.
If the universe began to exist, then it must have had a material cause.
However, if the universe is "all there is", then it could not have had a material cause.
Therefore, the universe did not have a beginning to its existence.
Therefore, the universe is eternal (and necessary).
Therefore, no [logically problematic] Creator God needed.
What was the material cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony? These things began to exist (along with like 4 trillion other examples I could give).
There are other problems with you list, but let's start there.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:32 pm
(March 16, 2018 at 12:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: What was the material cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony? Leo Tolstoy and Beethoven...respectively. You seem to be aware.....
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:33 pm
(March 16, 2018 at 12:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 10:29 am)Grandizer Wrote: You say "efficient cause" is necessary because intuition, then I say "material cause" is also necessary because intuition!
Everything that begins to exist must have a material cause.
If the universe began to exist, then it must have had a material cause.
However, if the universe is "all there is", then it could not have had a material cause.
Therefore, the universe did not have a beginning to its existence.
Therefore, the universe is eternal (and necessary).
Therefore, no [logically problematic] Creator God needed.
What was the material cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony? These things began to exist (along with like 4 trillion other examples I could give).
There are other problems with you list, but let's start there.
That's ludicrously easy a brain is the cause. Unless you can prove the brain is more than matter ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:36 pm
(March 16, 2018 at 12:14 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 9:17 am)SteveII Wrote: As I explained above, you are zeroing in on one aspect of causation that is obviously too restrictive when talking about thing that may have happened prior to the first moments of the universe.
1. Everything that begins to exist has an efficient cause.
How do you know this?
First, remember this argument is an inductive argument. The premises don't have to be proven--only more likely than not. In the case of Premise (1) it is extremely more likely that this is an objective feature of reality. Think about it, if there existed a reality that had no causal concept, could you really know anything about such a reality? There couldn't possibly be any consciousness that could endure in it.
Regardless, no one can put together a plausible argument against it--so it stands.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:39 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2018 at 12:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Apparently standing is all it can do...I have yet to see it go anywhere. Caused things have causes, granted..now what.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2018 at 12:50 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(March 16, 2018 at 12:36 pm)SteveII Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 12:14 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: How do you know this?
First, remember this argument is an inductive argument. The premises don't have to be proven--only more likely than not. In the case of Premise (1) it is extremely more likely that this is an objective feature of reality. Think about it, if there existed a reality that had no causal concept, could you really know anything about such a reality? There couldn't possibly be any consciousness that could endure in it.
Regardless, no one can put together a plausible argument against it--so it stands.
Steve, I posed a few more questions after the fact in post #631, if you would be so kind as to take a look.
Also, can you demonstrate that premise one is more likely true than not? “I just don’t see how it couldn’t be true” doesn’t really cut it.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 1:05 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2018 at 1:19 pm by SteveII.)
(March 16, 2018 at 12:33 pm)possibletarian Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 12:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: What was the material cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony? These things began to exist (along with like 4 trillion other examples I could give).
There are other problems with you list, but let's start there.
That's ludicrously easy a brain is the cause. Unless you can prove the brain is more than matter ?
Even if the brain is = to the imagination (which it is not), that still is not an example of a material cause. Mainly because neither the novel nor the symphony is material. Yet, they exist.
Quote:
- Matter: a change or movement's material "cause", is the aspect of the change or movement which is determined by the material that composes the moving or changing things. For a table, that might be wood; for a statue, that might be bronze or marble.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes
(March 16, 2018 at 12:14 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 16, 2018 at 9:17 am)SteveII Wrote: As I explained above, you are zeroing in on one aspect of causation that is obviously too restrictive when talking about thing that may have happened prior to the first moments of the universe.
1. Everything that begins to exist has an efficient cause.
How do you know this?
Also, this is just silliness if you think about it for more than five minutes:
Quote:Matter: the change or movement which is determined by the material that composes the moving or changing things. For a table, that might be wood; for a statue, that might be bronze or marble.
Versus:
Quote:Agent: a change or movement's efficient or moving "cause", consists of things apart from the thing being changed or moved, which interact so as to be an agency of the change or movement. For example, the efficient cause of a table is a carpenter, or a person working as one, and according to Aristotle the efficient cause of a boy is a father.
These two things are indistinguishable with regard to any physical thing within the universe. I could just as easily reason that the carpenter is the material cause for a table, seeing as humans are made of the same ‘material’; atoms; as wood. Along with everything else that exists in the universe for that matter. What is the material cause of a sand dune? What is the efficient cause? How can you tell the difference?
Perhaps the universe’s efficient cause is also a material cause.
As Vulc explained in the beginning, the KCA commits a composition fallacy. There is no getting around this.
My example of the novel and the symphony address your point.
If you continue further down the path of reasoning that the carpenter is made of atoms..., you are going to arrive at nothing ever beginning to exist. The material cause of a sand dune is easy: sand. The efficient cause is the wind.
Regarding the Composition Fallacy claim, I did respond to that in Post #567:
Quote:(1) The premise does not limit itself to the universe or reason from experiences within the universe. You are imposing a limit, not me. The argument claims that it is a general principle, a feature of existence, an obvious metaphysical truth.
There is no composition fallacy because we are not inferring the universe has a cause because everything in it is caused. The claim is that it is a general principle (as we have been discussing).
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RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 16, 2018 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2018 at 1:32 pm by I_am_not_mafia.)
It is always matter and the flow of energy through it changing the configuration of the matter.
Matter with no energy does nothing.
Energy with no matter does not retain any persistent shape.
The cause of Leo Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina or Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony was not only the matter that made up their brain but the firing of their neurons.
But also their environment and history.
There was never a single cause. It's simplistic theistic thinking to suggest otherwise.
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