Question for the heterosexual men of AF

[paulpablo]

I already stated a long time ago that for me it definitely would be a deal breaker

And there's no surprise there!

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I get turned off at the thought a girl used to be a man with a penis, it's just psychological.

Just like phobias are. Ding!

Sure, not everything psychological is a phobia... but this very clearly is. I mean, come on, if you were brought up in a culture where being trans and cis were both considered equally normal you wouldn't have this phobia. We're talking about someone who you intially start being attracted to and then discover they used to have a penis, and we're asking why you thinking about that turns you off. It's your upbringing and life experience, not your innate heterosexuality talking here.

It's not like a dude just put a penis in your ear. I almost certainly wouldn't ever like that either. (But if I ever did I wouldn't pretend I didn't. And yes. Even in the ear. Either we like something or we don't. (in my case no thanks I reckon LOL))

I don't know if it's my innate sexuality or not, for all practical purposes it makes no difference.  Innate sexuality is very primitive, it's highly likely that in a different society, lets say one where there are only trans women and men, I'd most likely be attracted to and having sex with trans women.  My primitive brain would be directing me towards the closest living human that looks like it might have reproductive value for me, even if the person doesn't.  

The fact that I live in a society with mostly CIS women means I can choose, and it's actually easier to choose CIS women.  It could be some relationship with the conscious brain that knows this person used to be a man, and the primitive brain that just wants to find fertile ovaries of naturally born women. 
Most of my attraction related to women, and it's true of most males, are signs of fertile ovaries.  Ontop of that I have a load of other likes and dislikes that I can't even begin to understand, I like girls with a slight lazy eye (Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez)  I can become infatuated with lesbians, I dislike girls that use certain words or eat certain food. 

I don't know if it's a phobia.  It's a thought that subtracts sexual attraction for me to a great degree, more than a fear.

[vulcanlogician]

OP: If I'm attracted to someone, I'm attracted to her. I can't say it wouldn't be weird especially since (presumably) I wasn't expecting it, but it wouldn't matter to me.

I have to agree though that a turnoff does not equal phobia.

[The Grand Nudger]

AF's very own version of the crying game scenario is heated, lol.  


@Ham

Sure, the reason I mentioned applies to cis and trans.  I've thought of a few more since that may not mean much to me but may mean alot to others that would also apply to trans and cis...I guess.

A person might feel that they've been tricked..lied to.  OFC, women lie to men all the time...just not about having had a penis as kids...usually.  It may be the idea that a person was once something revolting as a child..but plenty of us have stuck our dicks in present, let alone past deplorables.....and none of us really base much of our sexual attraction on what a person was as a child (I hope...lol). If we sat around long enough we could probably come up with tons of non transphobic reasons, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where it would be transphobia at play...if for no other reason than the existence of transphobic people.

[Losty]

There’s nothing wrong with not being attracted to trans women. It doesn’t make you transphobic at all. Honestly, I think it’s just as wrong to judge someone for who they’re not attracted to as it is to judge them for who they are attracted to. None of us get to choose who we are attracted to or who we are not attracted to.

[Little lunch]

I don't think I could be fooled.
But when I have seen a transsexual, I've known before hand and I see it instantly.
Maybe I have seen one and not known, I can't be sure.
A friend of mine went to a party years ago and saw a striking resemblance between two women and asked if they were mother and daughter.
The laughed their heads off.
He was fooled, but he knew something, just not what.

[Edwardo Piet]

I know an Asian dude who’s into white women only. That’s what he likes. He’s not racist, it’s just his taste! Lol

Yeah, like I said, that wouldn't be racist. There's a difference between not being into non-whites because you're just not into them and not being into non-whites because they're non-whites. I don't think the latter is even logically something that someone can feel, unless they have some sort of bizarre chromosone fetish, which like I said has gotta be like 0.0.0.0.0.0.01% of the population. And there may be many people who has never seen a non-white who they find hot, but folks who think someone is a white person when they're not and found them hot and then somehow realize later that they're actually non-white and they're like "Ewwww I can't possibly find them attractive anymore because I just realized they're not white.... must ignore....feelings!".... that's not the same as simply not being into non-whites lol.

I'm mostly into white women and asian women I tend to either not be into at all or very very into.... and black women I'm into almost none of them but a few in particular I find super duper hot. None of that is racist and if I'd never met a non-white person I didn't find hot that wouldn't be racist either. But if I thought someone was white and then discovered they weren't and was like "Ewwwww non-white" and desperately wished my erection would go down despite the fact I was still clearly very attracted.... I'd suspect that some sort of bigotry and denial was going on.... there's a difference between THAT and simply never meeting anyone of another race that you're into. It's like the difference between being an an atheist and being an anti-theist. Just because you've never met someone in a particular category that you've ever been attracted to so far doesn't mean you have to be so flat out against the possibility that even if you discover one day that you ARE attracted to a particular category then as soon as you discover that you try and stamp it out and pretend you don't feel that way as if there's something wrong with it.

[Little lunch]

But I'm not into men because they're men.
Does that make me homophobic?

[Whateverist]

I honestly don't know.  It has never come up.  But I think it might depend on what my age was and experience level up to that point.  When you're first finding your way in love and sex you're sort of imprinting at the same time to some degree.  Plus the infatuation/romance side is so much stronger then that I think it might well win the day.

I doubt I'd be interested if I knew at the start but I could be wrong.  I don't have strong 'types' physically and tend to bond on an individual level.

I know I'm not homophobic, being at the philosopher level of experience with it.  (Wasn't for me.)  I'm pretty sure I got all the conditioning that was in the culture when I was growing up.  But civil rights and then women's rights (at least the 60s/70s iteration) was emerging at the same time.  So I deliberately set out to get past the yuck factor and think I mostly have.  Now I'm more at the just-not-doing-it-for-me level.

I didn't vote because I'm not sure.

[notimportant1234]

What we haven't taken into account is that people might not feel secure about the situation, a thing wich may scar both parties involved. This leaves us just with phobia excluding bigotry.
I will be thrown out of ballance in this situation but man my sex drive is a beast.
Edit: From what I and Hammy talked on this topic last night and what I have researched, I don't think it is possible to lose attraction but it is certainly possible to feel insecure about the situation given that it is something most of us haven't encountered.

[Edwardo Piet]

I have to agree though that a turnoff does not equal phobia.

Right. Genuinely being turned off doesn't equal a phobia. Being turned on by someone initially and then pretending not to be after you discover something (that can't have actually affected how much you're attracted to them) because they fit a particular label that you're phobic of for bigoted reasons when you didn't realized they did on the other hand....

There's a difference between "I've never met a transwoman I'm attracted to."

And "Wow she's gorgeous. And I find her personality really attractive too. What?! You're telling me she used to have a penis?! She used to be a dude?!?!? YUCK I CAN'T POSSIBLY FIND THEM ATTRACTIVE ANYMORE EVEN WHEN I CLEARLY DO BECAUSE I REALLY DON'T LIKE TRANS PEOPLE."

Like, there's a difference between "I've never met a black guy who gets me off but that doesn't mean it's impossible I just have reason to believe I'm simply not into black dudes."

And "What? But he looked white? You're saying there's a such thing as an albino black person? What? He's black? YUCK. Not attracted anymore. Let's ignore my bodily responses and the fact the person's personality is attractive and pretend to no longer be attracted to this person because I'm a racist."

I'm not talking about people who are genuinely no longer attracted I am talking about people who CLAIM to no longer be attracted. Which are like the 0.0.0.0.0.01% people of people who get turned on by chromosones (mmm those tasty chromosones). Being "Ewwww they used to have a penis" isn't actually being turned off by the person, it's being turned off by a bigoted upbringing in a homophobic and transphobic culture.

I reported a thread that referred to a transWOMAN as "Man named Tiffany" for violating the prime directive and I was told it doesn't violate it. Well, fine, but then folks have gotta accept that threads named "Fag named Elton" or "Nigger named Wonder" are no worse and wouldn't violate the prime directive either. Either all slurs violate the prime directive and are equally disgusting and false or none of them do and are. Consistency. Homophobic and racist and transphobic posts aren't against the rules but at the very least I thought homophobic, racist and transphobic thread titles would violate the prime directive if "republcunt" or "libtard" isn't allowed in a thread title.... apparently insulting conservative or liberal people, poltiics being something people choose to support, is worse and less well informed than a slur against a transperson, black person or homosexual, etc, who knew!

Like I said, even otherwise highly progressive people don't get transphobia. The fact that most people's gut reaction would be "It's not the same" just demonstrates how widespread transphobia is. It absolutely is the same and for the same reasons. The fact that so many otherwise progressive people don't get transphobia is why I was using race as a analogy. But if no one even gets that there's a big difference between "I've never found a black person attractive" and being attracted to a black person and then upon discovering they're black suddenly pretending you're no longer attracted because they're black.

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There’s nothing wrong with not being attracted to trans women. It doesn’t make you transphobic at all. Honestly, I think it’s just as wrong to judge someone for who they’re not attracted to as it is to judge them for who they are attracted to. None of us get to choose who we are attracted to or who we are not attracted to.

I agree if we're talking about people who are genuinely no longer attracted and we're not talking about burying true feelings and recoiling in phobia due to bigotry.

I'm not talking about people who generally aren't turned on by any transperson they've ever met, or black person or fat person or thin person or martian person or whatever.

I'm not talking about genuinely non-attracted non-phobic people. I once fell out with someone for saying I was homophobic because I said that I'd find a dick in my mouth disgusting (It was on AF actually and you may remember who I'm talking about). That was absurd of them. The fact I generally find the idea of a sex with a transperson to be disgusting doesn't make me transphobic either. It wouldn't make a difference if instead of generally it were every transperson I'd ever met. That wouldn't be transphobic either. If I found none of them convincing and them all sexually disgusting that wouldn't be remotely transphobic. If I WAS convinced and turned on and still clearly was attracted and then I pretend not to be because they were trans and I was anti-transpeople... that would be transphobic. I'm incredibly pedantic here and what people seem to really be disagreeing with me on is that many people seem to think that when someone is intitially attracted to a person and then claims to no longer be attracted once they discover they are trans, then they assume that person's claim is genuine, not in denial about what they're really attracted to, and not motivated by phobia and bigotry. That's where the disagreement is. If all these people really were genuinely turned off and not motivated by phobia or bigotry after they discover a person is trans, then I wouldn't consider it transphobic at all. If it really was genuine. I highly suspect that it isn't. Just as I highly suspect that an albino white person who had black DNA but looked white to someone, that someone found to be highly attractive mentally and physically.... and then the person discovered they have black DNA and they recoiled in disgust.... is not genuinely no longer attracted either, and is motivated and fuelled by bigotry.

At the very least I want to make it clear that I'm not judging anyone who is genuinely no longer attracted upon discovery of such info. If they genuinely aren't then I don't think they're bigots at all. I just don't believe them and I think they're often self-deceived and repressed to the point of not even themselves realizing what they are really attracted to or what their true motives are.

I don't claim to know this... it just makes a lot of sense to me.

I'll catch you later folks. I'm going out for the results of my autism assessment now.