Question for the heterosexual men of AF

[henryp]

It was just funny that you were inadvertently insulting the person you were defending.  Don't worry about it, just something for me to get a chuckle over.  The worlds a funny place.

So if someone says to me" you would wish to have eyes as good as mine" and another person comes to my defense and says " f you he has myopia", the person who defended me also insulted me because he pointed out that I have eye problems?

He'd be saying you have shitty eyesight.  Not a very cutting insult.  More of an explanation really.  People rarely associate value/worth with eyesight.

Let's say you're a fatty fatterson.  And I beat you in a race, and I gloat a bit.  Then your friend says "Big deal.  Can't you see he's a fat slob."  I imagine you'd be less thankful to the friend for pointing out your shortcomings in that scenario.

[FFaith]

Its the whole "don't think about pink elephants" thing. You can't just tell someone to not think about something. I mean, duh. It's in the brain or it's not. I don't have any control over that baseline of bubbling constant thoughts, and neither does anyone else.

Yes but not liking pink elephants or penises are equally irrelevant to not being attracted to someone without a penis.

You may THINK that not being attracted to one of those could mean a person with a penis is no longer attractive to you, you may think that 'they used to have a penis' means they are no longer attractive, but your brain isn't actually referencing the person you mistakenly claim to be unattracted to, your brain is referencing something else you're unattracted to that no longer applies to them. And the disonnect and the motives behind it is what I find suspicious. Why is "used to have a penis" considered relevant?

Like I said, imagine in the far future where the operation was so perfect it instead became an atom for atom swap, the DNA got swapped, the chromosones got swapped and the biologicallly male body changing to a woman's transition was so perfect the woman was physically identical to a woman born a woman, atom for atom, chromosone for chromosone, 100% convincing and able to have kids.

You find them super hot, fall in love with the, fuck their brains out, consider their personality attractive. Their vagina feels real because it's physically identical to a woman who had never been needed to transform like that, and you get them pregnant. You then discover they had the atom for atom swap and are like "YUCK! They were different before!"

I fail to see how such a reaction is motivated by anything other than phobia and bigotry..... you ARE still attracted but you think you're not, so why are you self-deceived? What motivates that self-deception?

And I fail to see how if an imperfect operation in today's world is convincing enough that you wouldn't know the difference until you're told the difference... I fail to see how it's any different to the other scenario I described in any way that's relevant to my argument.

But if plenty of people who are your intellectual superior hasn't caught on to the logical specifics of what I'm driving at, then I very much doubt that you'll get where I'm coming from when you are a dude who doesn't even grasp the usefulness of basic logical fallacy spotting lol.

For me it's not about the fact that they used to have a dick. It's that they still have one in a way, but only it's reversed inside out. If I was attracted to their vag at first, and later find out it's not what I thought, it was merely a mirage all along. I didn't know what I was looking at before. I'm hetero, but if I was offered a million dollars to either suck a dick or eat out an artificially created vag, I'd probably choose to suck the dick instead. The idea of a dick getting chopped up and reversed is really that gross to me, and I can't help how I feel about that. In your future scenario where a perfect vag could be created, I could accept that, because I don't care about what genitalia they used to have. That's not it. I care about what they have now.

I'm not pretending either. You sound like a fundy theist who can't get past their narrow, simple minded view of the world, who claims that atheists really believe in God deep down, but are just pretending not to because they're mad at God. Most people are not pretending when they say that they find the idea unappealing. I just think you don't understanding the complexities of human sexuality very well. You are taking your own view on sexuality and applying it to everyone else, but not everyone is the same as you.

[Shell B]

It's actually what makes OCD so difficult. You have to learn to just have the thought. The more you try to fight it, the worse it gets.

I may not have experienced the exact same thing, but a few times the intrusive thoughts got bad. It must be very challenging and I can imagine, sometimes painful. You have my sympathies.

You're always very kind. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're one of my favorite members. Thank you for your sympathy. In general, my life is very, very good, though, so I'll take my lumps and hope I get through them.

[The Industrial Atheist]

I may not have experienced the exact same thing, but a few times the intrusive thoughts got bad. It must be very challenging and I can imagine, sometimes painful. You have my sympathies.

You're always very kind. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're one of my favorite members. Thank you for your sympathy. In general, my life is very, very good, though, so I'll take my lumps and hope I get through them.

Thanks so much! You're one of my favorite members also! You've also been so nice.

[CapnAwesome]

The irony of saying I didn't grasp basic thought experiments while not even understanding the pink elephant metaphor is razor sharp. I doubt you'll really avoid talking to me. Half my responses on this forum seem to come from you. I think you like me, deep down. I'm who you'd like to be, confident, social, good with women, athletic, educated and smart. I spend all my time outside and am never depressed.

Lol come on Cap, you can't say stuff like that. That's a bit harsh.

I was saying stuff about myself, not Hammy. I don't think describing myself is an insult to him. But what is that they say about glass houses? He however calls me an idiot all the time, which is laughable and not insulting at all actually.

I don't think some super logical intelligent person calls people idiots over the internet just because they disagree with them. Not to mention it makes no sense to insult someone over intelligence. People have little control over their intelligence, which any intelligent person would know, ironically. You won't find me doing it. It just goes to show how insecure he is about his own intelligence that it's his go to on this forum whenever anybody disagrees with his opinion.

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The irony of saying I didn't grasp basic thought experiments while not even understanding the pink elephant metaphor is razor sharp. I doubt you'll really avoid talking to me. Half my responses on this forum seem to come from you. I think you like me, deep down. I'm who you'd like to be, confident, social, good with women, athletic, educated and smart. I spend all my time outside and am never depressed.

You seem to think an awful lot about yourself. I thought you didn't like thinking about dicks?

My name is Capn Awesome, not Capn False Modesty. I don't know why people expect someone with that name to have anything other than a high opinion of themself.

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It is a problem. Thats why i limit my interneting to the few places that aren't full of dicks.

And yet everywhere you go, there you are.

The mere fact that people think that penises has absolutely anything to do with people without penises, should show how little sense it is to think that you're not attracted to someone without a penis because penises are out there elsewhere or were out there elsewhere. The very association of transwomen with penises alludes to bigotry and phobia. We're not talking about a transwoman who hasn't had a genital operation and still has a penis, we're not even talking about a transwoman with an unconvincing artiifical vagina... we're talking about a transwoman with a completely convincing artificial vagina so convincing that you'd never know the difference if you were never told she'd never have an operation, but if you are told you think about penises and mistakenly think that means you aren't attracted to the woman anymore, because, oh noes "yuck she used to be a dude". What kind of a reaction is that other than evidence of what your mind is really thinking about the kind of person you REALLY are? (a bigot).

Like I've said before, if people really are genuinely no longer turned on... then they're not bigots or transphobic. But I've listed my reasons for why I don't believe they are no longer attractive and why they are mistaken about what they think they feel, and how it makes no sense because they're not actually addressing what they think they're addressing, and it's something else they're unattracted to, not the transwoman.

It's not like on closer inspection afterwards you look at the transwoman and then spot male features and are no longer attracted. That wouldn't be transphobic at all. But if you continue to look at them and you still can't see any male features and you STILL find them attractive.... and then you think that the fact they used to have a penis means you don't.... the question is why are you deluded like that and what is driving that delusion?

Lol, I'm only skimming your shit posts, but yeah, you really do have some weird fixation on me. Why are you on this forum all the time when you are so clearly incapable of having a conversation with anyone who disagrees with you?

[Shell B]

You're always very kind. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're one of my favorite members. Thank you for your sympathy. In general, my life is very, very good, though, so I'll take my lumps and hope I get through them.

Thanks so much! You're one of my favorite members also! You've also been so nice.

You must be easy to be nice to, because nice isn't my default. I try to work on that.

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It must be good for your mental health to feel that way about yourself, to be sure. I prefer realism, but it doesn't do my any favors in that department. As many issues as Hammy has to work out, I do doubt that wanting to be you is one of them, though. I see him admiring a musical, artistic, introspective type, in all honesty. He seems to value those qualities above an abundance of confidence and an outdoor lifestyle.

[CapnAwesome]

Thanks so much! You're one of my favorite members also! You've also been so nice.

You must be easy to be nice to, because nice isn't my default. I try to work on that.

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It must be good for your mental health to feel that way about yourself, to be sure. I prefer realism, but it doesn't do my any favors in that department. As many issues as Hammy has to work out, I do doubt that wanting to be you is one of them, though. I see him admiring a musical, artistic, introspective type, in all honesty. He seems to value those qualities above an abundance of confidence and an outdoor lifestyle.

My view of myself is based on realism. All of those are true things about myself. My mental health is pretty good, it wasn't always that way though. In my early 20 I was an agoraphobia shut in with panic attacks and many social problems. I worked on improving myself as a person. Something Hammy doesn't seem to even try to do. Really I don't think he and I are that different, in the way our brains work, just that I work on improving myself, and have put a ton of work into figuring out social interactions. Where as he seems very overly sensitive to any criticism of himself or his views at all, which will always limit his self improvement.

I really think Hammy just got stuck on my thread on logical fallacies, and just can't let it go. His main social life is on the internet, so he takes it a lot more personally than all the other people (like youself) who also disagrees about that. He just can't seem to let it go. Apparently calling out peoples logical fallacies on a forum is emotionally important to him, in the ultimate irony. It's pretty funny actually.

I also think it irks him that I get laid all the time and have a lot going on in my life. Maybe he doesn't want to be me exactly, but I definitely get a weird jealous vibe from him.

[Catholic_Lady]

I had to look up what agoraphobia is. Holy crap.

[paulpablo]

I disagree that a trans male to female person never had a penis.  Just for the simple fact that they did

WOW! What an incredible argument /sarcasm

The point is "they", their identity, is not the same thing as their body. The self is the personality, and their personality didn't match a penis, nor did their personality "have a penis", the body that inhabited their personality did. And there was a sense in which it wasn't a body that was truly theirs, it was merely a body they inhabited. They felt like a stranger in that body, and that is the dysphoria that transpeople experience that you do not seem to grasp

Personality has no body parts.

They had a penis because they biologically had a penis, it was them who had a penis and had it surgically removed.

All this talk of they never had a penis because it was never them and if we all identify them as never having had a penis then that person never existed as a person with a penis.
It sounds religious or like some 1984 pattern of thinking.

[downbeatplumb]

Hammy, there's plenty enough desperate guys like you to service the trans women out there, so what's the big deal?

Douche.

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I was just surprised fro a second.

I seem to get dyslexic when stressed.