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Another hypothetical for theists.
#21
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I guess I don't even understand the OP. The underlying assumption seems to be that this is not the best of all possible worlds. I don't know if it is or isn't. Seems like an unanswerable question. That's what makes the Problem of Evil moot.

This world isn't even close to the best possible world by reference to states of affairs -in- this world.  Don't be obtuse for jesus, just because you can't coherently answer for what the creature you worship is supposed to have done.

Your unwillingness to answer it is not an indication that the question is unanswerable, by any stretch - and your very belief in christian mythology is acknowledgement that this world as it is could be qualitatively improved.

I've got a real..real simple answer, assuming a god. This was just the best that he had in him. NBD, for him, anyway. Happens to us all the time too. The issue, properly, isn't god's..but your need for a god to be what nothing in it;s alleged creation would suggest.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 2:48 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(March 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I guess I don't even understand the OP. The underlying assumption seems to be that this is not the best of all possible worlds. I don't know if it is or isn't. Seems like an unanswerable question. That's what makes the Problem of Evil moot.
This world isn't even close to the best possible world by reference to states of affairs -in- this world.  

I think you misunderstand me. My point is that the Problem of Evil, from the skeptics side, is not a logical argument; but rather, an emotional one based on incredulity. That you believe the world could be better has nothing to do with whether or not it actually could be. Secondly the state of the world most likely could be dramatically improved if everyone, including myself, always behaved like the best person they could be. That we choose not to do so isn't God's fault and doesn't negate that idea that it all started out pretty good until people started messing with each other.
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#23
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
Obtuse...for jesus.

We're gods design too..purportedly...so if we could be better but arent...that's the engineer making a shitty pinto and then blaming the pinto for being shitty. The zookeeper, blaming his charges for outmanouvering him at every step, in his every omni-whatever desire.

What an absolute fuckup, to hear you tell it. You tell us you believe in the lord of creation...and then describe jeff...who just can't get right.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
C'mon theists, don't keep us hanging...
Tell us what an earth would look like if it was created by an all knowing all loving God?

If there's a lego piece missing in the box, don't ring the toy store or Lego, just blame and curse the missing piece for it is the thing that failed you...
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#25
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
Apparently it looks like this world, and they can't imagine or can't know of any improvements to this world (except the ones they do know of that god..for whatever reason..can't manage)..even though the entirety of the human species is engaged daily in improving this world and has been since it's alleged creation...as lowly and base and evil as -we- are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#26
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 2:42 pm)Whateverist Wrote:
(March 22, 2018 at 9:05 am)Mathilda Wrote: I think that every species, including humans would be vegan. Assuming Allah / Yahweh / Mr God was a good god. why create animals that have to survive by painfully tearing apart other animals?


Alright, next applicant for gawd please.  What do you have against plants anyway?

My point being that if we were designed by gawd then we'd want to be vegan. Munching on a carrot would be like eating a steak or a cream cake. Have you ever tried feeding bits of human to a rabbit? They just don't want to know.
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#27
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 3:34 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(March 22, 2018 at 2:48 pm)Khemikal Wrote: This world isn't even close to the best possible world by reference to states of affairs -in- this world.  

I think you misunderstand me. My point is that the Problem of Evil, from the skeptics side, is not a logical argument; but rather, an emotional one based on incredulity. That you believe the world could be better has nothing to do with whether or not it actually could be. Secondly the state of the world most likely could be dramatically improved if everyone, including myself, always behaved like the best person they could be. That we choose not to do so isn't God's fault and doesn't negate that idea that it all started out pretty good until people started messing with each other.

Excellent post!
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#28
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I guess I don't even understand the OP. The underlying assumption seems to be that this is not the best of all possible worlds. I don't know if it is or isn't. Seems like an unanswerable question. That's what makes the Problem of Evil moot.

IMO this is the best and worst of all physically possible worlds because it's the only physically possible world because philosophical determinism is true. However, we can still imagine in the hypothetical, logically possible worlds that would in theory be far better than this one (a world exactly the same but without children starving to death and animals being tortured is already a logically possible world that is better).

So it really depends what kind of 'possibility' we're talking about.
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#29
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 10:16 am)Mathilda Wrote:
(March 22, 2018 at 9:50 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Wow, there sure would need to be a lot of plants.

Anyway, would you be ok with animals that eat insects, or is that evil too?

Actually there wouldn't need to be so many plants. It is far more efficient eating plants directly than eating an animal that survives by eating plants,


https://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html

Quote:We put far more energy into animals per unit of food than we do for any plant crop. The main reason is that cattle consume 16 times more grain than they produce as meat so right there we have 16 times as much energy just to grow those crops, just so we can waste them on livestock.

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/...estock-eat

As far as insects are concerned, they probably also have a capacity to suffer, which is why they avoid aversive stimuli. So no, a world that was designed by a god would not have insects being eaten either.

(March 22, 2018 at 9:55 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I can't remember where it was, but I recall an article I read recently where they introduced predators back into an ecological system (I believe it was wolves).  The results where that everything became stronger and better.

I know what you are referring to. But it's because what we think of natural environments are often extremely unbalanced because of human activity. It wouldn't have to be designed that way. In this case it was yellowstone where wolves had already died out and this created the imbalance that was then rectified by reintroducing them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...ellowstone

Hopefully a world created by a god would not have insects at all
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
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#30
RE: Another hypothetical for theists.
(March 22, 2018 at 3:34 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That you believe the world could be better has nothing to do with whether or not it actually could be.

Again, which kind of possiiblity are you talking about? Almost everything is logically possible, but IMO absolutely nothing besides what is actual, is physically possible now, will be physical possible at the time when it will be or was at the time when it was.

If God willed and determined the world to be the way it is, then indeed no better possible world could exist, nor no worse one. If we're talking about physical possibility. But better and worse worlds are indeed logically possible.

I also think no better or worse world could exist, if we're talking about physical possibility. Because I'm a determinist. Not because I think a God determined the world, but because I believe everything is governed by cause and effect.... one event after the other. I'm also a presentist and I believe only in what is.... what was isn't but it was, what will isn't but it will be, etc. The past and future were but no longer are real and aren't yet but will be real when they are actually present (and the present) respectively.

But again, there are many worlds that are logically possible that we can imagine that are better and worse than this one. An otherwise identical world but without child rape is logically impossible and a huge improvement over this one. An otherwise identical world but where there is a great deal more rape and murder and other evils, is a logically possible world that is a huge disimprovement over this one.

Physically possible and logically possible are not the same thing. There's also metaphysical possibility, but we can't even speak of that until we've defined our metaphysical terms.... and in many cases it wouldn't make much of a difference as a different version of metaphysics are often two sides of the same coin or two different ways of viewing the same reality we live in. Although, sure, some theories of metaphysics are just plain false.

(March 22, 2018 at 9:38 pm)Losty Wrote: Hopefully a world created by a god would not have insects at all

* Edwardo Piet desperately searches google images for a cute insect.

(March 22, 2018 at 3:34 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That we choose not to do so isn't God's fault

If an omniscient omnipotent God exists then either everything is his fault because he is the only one who has the ultimate power and knowledge to be responsible for everything, or nothing is anyone's fault including himself because he doesn't have any more control over what he MUST do than anyone or anything else without free will.
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