The problem with prayer

[Kyuuketsuki]

I think if there is a God, ALL of us will be equally important to him, not just those who pray. All human life is precious.

LOL ... that just makes you sound speciesist

Kyu

[CoxRox]

I think if there is a God, ALL of us will be equally important to him, not just those who pray. All human life is precious.

LOL ... that just makes you sound speciesist

Kyu

'discrimination that is practised by man against other species'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism

Well, I'm guilty of this. I eat meat.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I think if there is a God, ALL of us will be equally important to him, not just those who pray. All human life is precious.

LOL ... that just makes you sound speciesist

Kyu

'discrimination that is practised by man against other species'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism

Well, I'm guilty of this. I eat meat.

Well it was more a quip than anything else but it was a quip with a point ... I agree that humans are special but the only thing one can say for sure is that humans are only special to us (and given the way that some of us are willing to destroy others not so much sometimes).

Kyu

[chatpilot]

CoxRox in response to your message to me I just want you to know that you and I are in two different places.I was a fundamental Pentecostal evangelist once for four years.I have felt the so called holy spirit and spoken in tongues and even was purported to have perfomed some healings,but my specialty was casting out demons or exorcisms.I no longer believe that there is a god and I attribute most of what I felt and experienced to psycho emotional causes and the so called healings that people claimed in my ministry to psycho-somatic disorders.After having experienced and researched the many arguments for and against the existence of God I have become 100 percent convinced that God and all gods/godesses were and are nothing more than the creations of man.

I have no use nor time for a god in my life and considering the source of God namely ancient mythology,I dont need to dig any further to confidently discard god and the belief in god to the realm of myth.When you read the scriptures who tells us that they are the word of god?The scriptures themselves claim to be gods word for mankind as in all holy books from so many other world cultures claim.Who is right and who is the true god?Well,that depends in which culture and country you were born in.Religion is a societal and cultural phenomenon and although this may seem like a simplistic view it is also the most realistic view.

[CoxRox]

Now suppose I am a sincere Hindu and I ask you to sacrifice a rabbit for me on Kali's altar for my recovery, would you do that?

Of course not Leo. If a Hindu or whoever, asked me to pray for them, I would have no problem with that or if they told me they had prayed for me, I would thank them. If someone asked me to do something that went against what I perceive to be acceptable (in any context, not just religious) then I wouldn't do it. If a Hindu said to me: 'I've sacrificed a rabbit for your recovery', then I would express an interest and get into a discussion in as tactful a way as possible to explain why I don't believe in sacrificing rabbits or any other animals for these purposes. My discomfort in the situation would possibly be similar to an atheist who learns they have been prayed for, hence why I wouldn't say to you 'Leo, I've been praying that you will see that God is real'. I know that is not appropriate and by the way, I haven't prayed that. Prayer is a serious business for those who believe in it. I just want to impress upon folks that crazy though it may be, it is done, whether by a Christian, Hindu or Muslim or whoever, for good, sincere reasons, not for egotistical, arrogant ones. That is my sincere belief. And I'd better just mention that like anything, it can be used for bad e.g a suicide bomber praying they will kill as many people as possible or a wacko Christian fundamentalist praying for the death of a sinner. All things are abused or misused, so too prayer.

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CoxRox in response to your message to me I just want you to know that you and I are in two different places.

Like you Chatpilot, I can see that the Pentecostal Movement is not 'God's' power being poured out on people in these churches. I briefly visited a few during the height of one particular 'movement'- the Toronto Blessing, and I could see it was nothing supernatural, but rather people tapping into mass hynotic type nonsense. You have studied and concluded there is no god/s and I am studying this at the moment. I have many doubts but I haven't given up on 'finding' God just yet. As respects our discussion on 'prayer', I'm giving my 'take' on it, as someone who prays (not very often) and knows people who prays, so that people who don't believe in god/s and obviously prayer, can understand the misguided sincerity of us pray-ers. I don't like being accused of being arrogant if I pray, hence why I'm discussing this.

[leo-rcc]

Prayer is a serious business for those who believe in it.

So is tea-leaf reading.

I just want to impress upon folks that crazy though it may be, it is done, whether by a Christian, Hindu or Muslim or whoever, for good, sincere reasons, not for egotistical, arrogant ones.

Which is good sincere reason, and which is egotistical and/or arrogant? You pray for the health of a loved one, because you want that loved one to recover and active in your life. To me, that is both sincere and good, and egotistical. One does not exclude the other. Prayer is most of the time to make you feel better about a situation, hoping that you helped solve a predicament you have no control over, or a chance to reflect and solve your own problems. This is not a value judgment on prayer, but at least be honest that prayer is in fact egotistical.

That is my sincere belief. And I'd better just mention that like anything, it can be used for bad e.g a suicide bomber praying they will kill as many people as possible or a wacko Christian fundamentalist praying for the death of a sinner. All things are abused or misused, so too prayer.

And yet those suicide bomber who prays for many victims usually get their prayers "answered", evidence for that are abundant all over the world. Is Allah on their side?

[Eilonnwy]

Leo, I agree with you. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I don't think prayer is something that people do to get everything they want. I totally get it that people are sincere when they prayer and think they are doing something good. Why would people do it if they didn't feel like they were doing good? And didn't get anything out of it?

I realize to hear that someone considers your act of prayer arrogant to be upsetting, because I'm sure you approach it thinking you're helping people. And I'm not trying discrediting that desire. But I don't view selfishness as something that's always bad. Everyone acts selfishly whether we're aware of it or not, me inlcuded. We are selfish by nature and that's actually a good thing otherwise I don't think we'd survive so well as a species.

I think if there is a God, ALL of us will be equally important to him, not just those who pray. All human life is precious.

If that's true then why pray? If God loves everyone he'll take care of all our needs and praying is meaningless. So either don't pray, because he treats us equally, or do pray because he plays favorites which is hypocritical. If you think that God has a plan and works in mysterious, does it matter if you pray? Why pray for someone who is sick if God loves us equally? Why should he heal your mother and not the neighbour down the street, or the people dying in Gaza right now?

All religions have a hidden arrogance/selfishness by trying to make you seem so small, so miserable, so sinfull. But god loves you.

I don't understand this strange compartmentalization the religious go through. I talked about it with a coworker who says people die because it's god's plan, there's no free will. And then I ask her if a drunk driver who kills someone has free will, and she says he does but that it was god's plan for the guy to die. sdfkj;fg Mega contradiction anyone?

[CoxRox]

Leo, I cannot see the connection between 'sincere' motives (although maybe misguided), and 'ego' in the sense of arrogance. I really can't. It is possible to pray with bad motives, just as it is possible to give a speech filled with hate-filled poison. I am speaking of prayer in the general sense. Whatever is in your heart, will come out in your actions and speech (and prayers). If it's selfish to want your loved one to recover then good. Selfishness in this sense is part of the survival instinct that propels us to act in ways to survive. Prayer is just an expression of that hope and need to survive, or get better or resolve an issue. There are arrogant pray-ers, no doubt but I maintain the act of praying is not arrogant or as I can see it egotistical. My way of viewing this is very different to yours.

[Eilonnwy]

Leo, I cannot see the connection between 'sincere' motives (although maybe misguided), and 'ego' in the sense of arrogance. I really can't. It is possible to pray with bad motives, just as it is possible to give a speech filled with hate-filled poison. I am speaking of prayer in the general sense. Whatever is in your heart, will come out in your actions and speech (and prayers). If it's selfish to want your loved one to recover then good. Selfishness in this sense is part of the survival instinct that propels us to act in ways to survive. Prayer is just an expression of that hope and need to survive, or get better or resolve an issue. There are arrogant pray-ers, no doubt but I maintain the act of praying is not arrogant or as I can see it egotistical. My way of viewing this is very different to yours.

I pretty much agree with your sentiments, accept I can see where sincere wishes of doing good and helping people and arrogance can connect. The fact that people may not stop to consider who they praying for, whether that person appreciates if they're being praying for is arrogant regardless of whether the person would appreciate it or not.

Just remember, I really don't think people who pray are bad people, I don't think that they are motivated by only selfish means, I realize that prayer is helpful to people in a meditative and wishful thinking/hoping sort of way. I realize they feel they are doing good and don't view it as selfish or arrogant. I'm not going to say people shouldn't pray. If they want to, it's their right.

But at the end of the day, I'm just not going to hold prayer up on a pedestal and leave it free from criticism just because it makes people feel good and is general done with hope of doing good. I have problems with it, and I've expressed those opinions, I hope in a clear fashion.

I appreciate your sentiments, CoxRox. I realise you honestly view prayer as a good thing and do it with the best possible intentions. But when you're an atheist everyone is always happy to talk about God and prayer, not just amongst themselves but publicly. A person dies and it gets televised and everyone needs to say "our thoughts and prayers are with the family, etc"and while it sounds nice, well what if the family is atheist, or some religion that wouldn't apprecaite prayers? People are so used to the idea that everyone they meet in this country is probably Christian that they tend not to think, maybe I should just keep it to myself. So while maybe most of the people they meet would appreciate the sentiment, the small percentage who don't get overlooked.

Take for instance the National Day of Prayer, not only is it a huge violation of seperation of church and state, but it alienates the citizens of America who don't prayer for whatever reason. Despite being ambiguously named, it's no secret it means a day of prayer to the Abrahamic God, it ignores the many other religions that exist within the country including non-religion. Why does there have to be a national day of prayer? Why can't people who want to pray for the country do so in their own home in private? Instead they have to make a big show of praying to their god. By making it a national event it is completely arrogant, yet I'm sure the intention was just sincerely a good one. It overlooked the many people who would be offended by it just because most people aren't.

[CoxRox]

Eilonnwy, you have just reminded me of a long forgotten thing. When I was in my teens I went through a period when I didn't believe in God and I remember in assembly the whole school had to say the 'Lord's Prayer'. I remember defiantly looking ahead with my eyes open (not the head bowed, eyes shut as was 'commanded'). I would will a teacher to challenge me, but unfortunately they never did. I think we are mostly in agreement here.