Is there free will in heaven?

[Shell B]

We're not going to discuss that, lucent. Whether or not god is corrupt is irrelevant. I will not give you another platform from which to launch your preaching. We are discussing.

1. If there is freewill in heaven?
2. If yes, how can it be considered freewill if we cannot choose to go there or not to go there?
3. Does what we "deserve" have any bearing on it and, if so, why is it okay for anyone to judge what we deserve for all of eternity.

I believe that sums it up. Remember, I do not believe in god. I do not believe it is a judge. I do not believe it has any rights, as it does not exist. I will not bandy in hypotheticals with you any longer. Refer back to my post and you will see that the important points, those that were not dragged off topic, are at the bottom.

[lucent]

We're not going to discuss that, lucent. Whether or not god is corrupt is irrelevant. I will not give you another platform from which to launch your preaching. We are discussing.

1. If there is freewill in heaven?
2. If yes, how can it be considered freewill if we cannot choose to go there or not to go there?
3. Does what we "deserve" have any bearing on it and, if so, why is it okay for anyone to judge what we deserve for all of eternity.

I believe that sums it up. Remember, I do not believe in god. I do not believe it is a judge. I do not believe it has any rights, as it does not exist. I will not bandy in hypotheticals with you any longer. Refer back to my post and you will see that the important points, those that were not dragged off topic, are at the bottom.

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't want to have a conversation about whether God has a right to judge us, but you do want to have a conversation about:

1. If there is freewill in heaven? (a place God created)

2. If yes, how can it be considered freewill if we cannot choose to go there or not to go there? (whether or not being assigned to Heaven or Hell by God is free will or not)

3. Does what we "deserve" have any bearing on it and, if so, why is it okay for anyone to judge what we deserve for all of eternity. (how what we deserve according to God fits in and why God has any right to judge our eternal fate)

I believe that sums it up. Remember, I do not believe in god. I do not believe it is a judge. I do not believe it has any rights, as it does not exist. I will not bandy in hypotheticals with you any longer. Refer back to my post and you will see that the important points, those that were not dragged off topic, are at the bottom.

Glad you cleared that up. I'll be sure to stay away from the topics that you don't want to discuss and concentrate on the ones you approved here. I'll be sure not to discuss God or His judgement even in a hypothetical sense whilst we discuss God and His judgement hypothetically.

[Shell B]

Lucent, I am not telling you what you can and cannot talk about. I am telling you that derailing a thread repeatedly and refusing to touch on the actual subject at hand, instead telling us all about what we deserve from god, is against the rules. If you want to discuss the law, make another fucking thread. I have humored you thusfar and told you that I will not continue to do so. If you want to be a snarky prick about it, that is fine. I will let another mod remind you to stay on topic.

---

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't want to have a conversation about whether God has a right to judge us

Wrong. We have already had this discussion. It has continued for several pages. Now, I want to get back to the topic at hand.

[lucent]

Lucent, I am not telling you what you can and cannot talk about. I am telling you that derailing a thread repeatedly and refusing to touch on the actual subject at hand, instead telling us all about what we deserve from god, is against the rules. If you want to discuss the law, make another fucking thread. I have humored you thusfar and told you that I will not continue to do so. If you want to be a snarky prick about it, that is fine. I will let another mod remind you to stay on topic.

---

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't want to have a conversation about whether God has a right to judge us

Wrong. We have already had this discussion. It has continued for several pages. Now, I want to get back to the topic at hand.

nevermind..its irrelevent..going with the flow.

[Shell B]

For fuck's sake, you're doing it again. I asked you to prove an assertion. After reading the first round of our correspondence in this thread, I see that I tried to keep on the freewill aspect of things. You will notice that you continuously brought it right out of context. What is the point of discussing law if it doesn't pertain to the question at hand? One fucking question that was answered pages back should not still be part and parcel of this rodeo.

I did not say that I would not have hypothetical conversations about god with you. I said I will not bandy hypotheticals with you anymore. You can take that to mean, "you are so scatterbrained and I am so tired of being preached to that I am giving up." I'm asking your opinion about things and trying to suss out what you think about freewill and heaven compared to what I think. The four or so pages of "you deserve punishment whether you believe in god or not" doesn't answer any of the questions I posed to you.

[lucent]

Look, I'll conede your point here, although not your whitewashed history of the events. Lets move on..

1. If there is freewill in heaven?

Yes, but all things which caused evil and lead to evil will be removed. The nature of man will be wholly good at that point and evil will be entirely ruled out. The saints will always be in the continual presence of God which cements this.

2. If yes, how can it be considered freewill if we cannot choose to go there or not to go there?

When you are accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are in effect choosing Heaven. The only ones there who could be said to not have a choice would be children who died before they had the sufficient knowledge to make the choice. The entire free will choice is based entirely on whether you are accepting and rejecting God. There is no third option.

3. Does what we "deserve" have any bearing on it and, if so, why is it okay for anyone to judge what we deserve for all of eternity.

No, because everyone deserves hell. It's okay for God to judge what we deserve because He created us and He determines every aspect of our lives. There is no life apart from God. It's up to God where we go and how we get there. Only God knows the heart and is the only one qualified to judge.

[ElDinero]

Then. That. Is. Not. Free. Will.

You fucking idiots, can't even wrap your head around the absolute most basic concept there is. What could be easier than 'Free will means you can do whatever'. As I said in the beginning, there are things that I suspect in your (made up) version of heaven I will not be allowed to do. But to remove them from me would defeat the point of 'me' altogether. One thing that's always stressed about heaven is how you can see all your old loved ones and so on. But if I turned up to see them having had these elements of me removed, they wouldn't recognise me, and the reunion would therefore not be a joyous one, but more of a confused probing to find out what happened to me.

Get your head around that paragraph, and stop trying to argue that 'free will within certain parameters' is something that even exists.

[Erinome]

I suggest you all convert to my religion. When you die you get sent to this 5 Star Hotel in the sky. You can get a massage from an asian hooker, order beer and hot wings or whatever. There is a never ending supply of pot when you open the drawer. Its on the beach, every woman is a virgin, every man is hung like a mule, every channel has something that will interest you, there are roller coasters, hot air balloon rides, horse stables, race cars, porn, pizza, boomerang throwing, face painting, kitty cats and bunny rabbits, everyone has superpowers, and every day is christmas.... without all that pesky, divisive, christ/judgement shit.

Or you can go to Judea Christian heaven where you will lose the part of you that made you you. The thrill of life will turn into the vapid disconnect from life and you'll be free to do whatever you want except actually live.

[lucent]

Then. That. Is. Not. Free. Will.

You fucking idiots, can't even wrap your head around the absolute most basic concept there is. What could be easier than 'Free will means you can do whatever'. As I said in the beginning, there are things that I suspect in your (made up) version of heaven I will not be allowed to do. But to remove them from me would defeat the point of 'me' altogether. One thing that's always stressed about heaven is how you can see all your old loved ones and so on. But if I turned up to see them having had these elements of me removed, they wouldn't recognise me, and the reunion would therefore not be a joyous one, but more of a confused probing to find out what happened to me.

Get your head around that paragraph, and stop trying to argue that 'free will within certain parameters' is something that even exists.

Free will within certain perameters is the only kind of free will there is. In the scope of our discussion, you're not ultimately free to defy God. Your rebellion only lasts as long as your life does, and that is however long God pleases to give you to come to repentance. It's important for you to realize that certain elements of you are not approved by God and don't belong in Heaven. The attributes you think of as too wonderful to lose are what keep you in spiritual poverty.

In Heaven there won't be an occupy jerusalem movement. There isn't going to be any more rebellion against Gods authority. This is Gods purpose:

Let's say the Kingdom of Heaven is not a possible world that God can directly create. To have a world of creatures who freely love and worship Him, He needs a runup to that world in which creatures freely choose either to accept Him and live with Him in eternity, or reject Him and separate themselves from Him forever. While He could have made His existence overwhelmingly obvious, He chose to interact with us at arms length so as not to unduly influence our decision making. Of course, if everyone knows God is around then they are going to be on their best behavior and do everything He says. He didn't want yes men, so He put this world under a veil, so His creatures could be significantly free to make their own choices. He gives them enough information to know He is there, and what their choices are, but He doesn't press them into service.

The people who freely choose Him, who want to be wholly good and to love and worship God, are remade in the image of His Son. They take on His attributes, and His character. So, all of the people in the Kingdom of Heaven, while they may have the choice of rebellion, will simply never choose it. There will be nothing within them which would ever lead to even a single transgression. The former things of this world will have passed away, and there will be a new way which will be wholly satisfyingly, which is perfect joy, perfect love; life itself will be perfect.

I understand that in your rebellious state, worshipping God is the furtherest thing from your mind. All I will say to you is that you already love God, but you transfer that love onto His creation. You ascribe its wonder and beauty and mystery to blind processes and fate. You have no one to praise for it, no one to thank for your life. So, you give yourself the glory. That's what atheism is all about..transferring the glory due to God to yourself. The deists give the glory to nature. But God is even more wonderful than His creation, and is worthy of all praise.

Those loved ones, if they were in Heaven, would all be different too. They would be changed by the love of God, and you would fit right in. There would be nothing missing because your joy would be complete. The transient nature of this world would not be missed, because it is ultimately empty and futile. It is all perishing, and it will all pass away. God set eternity in our hearts so that we would seek Him out, because that is the only thing that will satisfy our restless souls. The world can fill your senses and give you a fix from its sensual pleasures, but they don't last. Our hearts desire an eternal satisfaction, one which the world cannot provide. Only God can provide it, for if we drink from His well, we will never thirst again.

[ElDinero]

I certainly don't ascribe anything to fate, because I don't believe in it. Don't tell me what I do.

This is why it's a paradox. If I'm to be reunited with my lost loved ones, I want them exactly as I remember them. I don't want them to have changed, I liked them before, including their faults. You want there to be millions of vacant, smiling drones, and I tell you I believe that's nauseating. I value my friends for who they are - real people with strengths and weaknesses. Luckily, we have no reason to believe your shitty lobotomised heaven exists.