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Please help me understand this Indian "law"
#11
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 12:36 am)DodosAreDead Wrote:
(July 24, 2018 at 8:48 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: It's India.  Where a woman protesting on the street about a series of gang rapes was gang raped and murdered.

Who understands their society and laws?
Yes, there are huge problems here. The rape culture being one of them. That doesn't mean the entire society and all the laws are absurd, you know. It's a country of 1.3 BILLION people, which is practicing a successful democracy. It is, truly, the biggest democracy in the world. That's something that needs to be considered before dissing it. 

(July 24, 2018 at 8:49 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's the "Beat The Shit Out Of Your Own Kids" Law.

Very popular in primitive cultures.
Ok this made me laugh because it's true. Not exactly a primitive culture, but yes, that's that law in a much more coherent sentence than the one in the Penal Code. 

(July 24, 2018 at 9:48 pm)chimp3 Wrote: It means they don't understand or give a shit about kids.
Ok, this is where you're completely wrong. The culture has always been one of respecting your elders, and elders in turn, frankly, disrespecting their own children. Is that wrong? Absolutely. Does that mean they don't understand or give a shit about kids? No. Not at all. It's a different culture, man. Kids are said to be the flowers in the garden of God. In a hugely religious country, that really means something, even if it's only something to laugh at for atheists. And I can assure you, as a kid that's grew up half in India and half in US, kids here are on the whole much happier and more content than in US. And no, the only people who hit their kids are parents/guardians. And that too, rarely. Except in slums, which is a different story altogether, and contrary to popular belief, not representative of the majority of the population.
If this statute allows corporal punishment as long as it does not exceed to causing death, then I stick with my statement above. If this is just allowing for surgeries, etc. that involve the risk of death, then I am wrong. My criticism would only apply to the law makers, not the average  citizen of India.
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#12
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 4:54 am)chimp3 Wrote: If this statute allows corporal punishment as long as it does not exceed to causing death, then I stick with my statement above. If this is just allowing for surgeries, etc. that involve the risk of death, then I am wrong. My criticism would only apply to the law makers, not the average  citizen of India.
The simple truth is that corporal punishment of the kind that you are talking about is rampant here, whether legal or not. My point is that it's a culture difference. I've lived in India long enough to know that Indians do value children as much as anyone, it's just that the mentality here is 'a slap isn't gonna kill the kid'. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter altogether, but do not assume Indians don't give a shit about kids.
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#13
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 12:04 pm)DodosAreDead Wrote:
(July 25, 2018 at 4:54 am)chimp3 Wrote: If this statute allows corporal punishment as long as it does not exceed to causing death, then I stick with my statement above. If this is just allowing for surgeries, etc. that involve the risk of death, then I am wrong. My criticism would only apply to the law makers, not the average  citizen of India.
The simple truth is that corporal punishment of the kind that you are talking about is rampant here, whether legal or not. My point is that it's a culture difference. I've lived in India long enough to know that Indians do value children as much as anyone, it's just that the mentality here is 'a slap isn't gonna kill the kid'. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter altogether, but do not assume Indians don't give a shit about kids.

It is legal in India, which was the whole point of the thread.

I'm someone who was a victim of Indian corporal punishment when I was a kid, which has caused several mental health problems for me now. If you think Indians value children, you should read the law I posted again. It essentially says that children under 12 years of age are the property of their guardians, who can do anything to them as long as they claim that it was "for their benefit". This is despite the fact that all the research shows that corporal punishment is a disastrous practice that only leads to more violence and social pathology.

As an Indian, I can readily admit that I never understood the cherished Indian value of "respecting one's elders". If that's true, I should respect a 1000-year-old banyan tree above anything else. The truth is that children are only going to respect people who command their respect, and if you're an elder who uses corporal punishment against a child, you're very unlikely to earn that child's respect. Ageism, the belief that older people are more deserving than youngsters, is rampant and accepted in India and is a social evil like racism or casteism.
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#14
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 12:36 am)DodosAreDead Wrote:
(July 24, 2018 at 8:48 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: It's India.  Where a woman protesting on the street about a series of gang rapes was gang raped and murdered.

Who understands their society and laws?
Yes, there are huge problems here. The rape culture being one of them. That doesn't mean the entire society and all the laws are absurd, you know. It's a country of 1.3 BILLION people, which is practicing a successful [?] democracy. It is, truly, the biggest democracy in the world. That's something that needs to be considered before dissing it. 

That's a debatable proposition.....
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#15
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 12:37 pm)Alexmahone Wrote: It is legal in India, which was the whole point of the thread.

I'm someone who was a victim of Indian corporal punishment when I was a kid, which has caused several mental health problems for me now. If you think Indians value children, you should read the law I posted again. It essentially says that children under 12 years of age are the property of their guardians, who can do anything to them as long as they claim that it was "for their benefit". This is despite the fact that all the research shows that corporal punishment is a disastrous practice that only leads to more violence and social pathology.

As an Indian, I can readily admit that I never understood the cherished Indian value of "respecting one's elders". If that's true, I should respect a 1000-year-old banyan tree above anything else. The truth is that children are only going to respect people who command their respect, and if you're an elder who uses corporal punishment against a child, you're very unlikely to earn that child's respect. Ageism, the belief that older people are more deserving than youngsters, is rampant and accepted in India and is a social evil like racism or casteism.
I am in complete agreement with everything you said except the fact that Indians don't value children, but maybe that's simply because of my own experiences as an Indian kid being different than yours. I never felt like I was an unvalued child, and I don't think the kids I know feel it either, but it's a huge country with so many varying cultures that I'm definitely more than willing to accept that this may not be the case in many other places. I think I was talking more from my experience in the area where I live, which may not be properly representative of entire India. 
Oh, and obviously I am in complete disagreement with the "respecting one's elders" thing too, or else I wouldn't be on here arguing with a bunch of people over twice my age.  Big Grin

(July 25, 2018 at 12:56 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(July 25, 2018 at 12:36 am)DodosAreDead Wrote: Yes, there are huge problems here. The rape culture being one of them. That doesn't mean the entire society and all the laws are absurd, you know. It's a country of 1.3 BILLION people, which is practicing a successful [?] democracy. It is, truly, the biggest democracy in the world. That's something that needs to be considered before dissing it. 

That's a debatable proposition.....
I mean successful as in truly being a democracy, not successful as in creating a developed or prosperous country.
The word bed actually looks like a bed. 
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#16
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
Google says the actual intent of this law is to protect people from unintended consequences of their actions. It is a good samaritan law. An example of the intent would be to protect a surgeon performing a risky but potentially life saving operation on conjoined twins where one of the twins dies as a result of the procedure. Under this law the surgeon couldn't be held responsible for the death assuming there wasn't some type of gross negligence. If it is used to allow people to beat the shit out of children then that's a problem with the way Indian courts apply the law, not necessarily with the law itself.

Also keep in mind that wording is a translation from Hindi. It might not come across well.
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#17
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 1:13 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: Google says the actual intent of this law is to protect people from unintended consequences of their actions. It is a good samaritan law. An example of the intent would be to protect a surgeon performing a risky but potentially life saving operation on conjoined twins where one of the twins dies as a result of the procedure. Under this law the surgeon couldn't be held responsible for the death assuming there wasn't some type of gross negligence. If it is used to allow people to beat the shit out of children then that's a problem with the way Indian courts apply the law, not necessarily with the law itself.

Also keep in mind that wording is a translation from Hindi. It might not come across well.
Google is correct, and that law is important. A few months ago, an Indian doctor lost an eye when enraged relatives of the deceased attacked him for not being able to save the person. I'm not sure of that is entirely relevant, but basically what I'm trying to say is that such protections are necessary here. 

However the Hindi thing: English is one of the two national languages of India and is used in all official proceedings. The first drafts of the Penal Code were drafted by British colonizers. So it's not a lost in translation type of thing for sure.
The word bed actually looks like a bed. 
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#18
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 1:13 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: Google says the actual intent of this law is to protect people from unintended consequences of their actions. It is a good samaritan law. An example of the intent would be to protect a surgeon performing a risky but potentially life saving operation on conjoined twins where one of the twins dies as a result of the procedure. Under this law the surgeon couldn't be held responsible for the death assuming there wasn't some type of gross negligence. If it is used to allow people to beat the shit out of children then that's a problem with the way Indian courts apply the law, not necessarily with the law itself.

Also keep in mind that wording is a translation from Hindi. It might not come across well.

How is a law, worded thusly, going to avoid being abused?
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#19
RE: Please help me understand this Indian "law"
(July 25, 2018 at 1:21 pm)DodosAreDead Wrote: However the Hindi thing: English is one of the two national languages of India and is used in all official proceedings. The first drafts of the Penal Code were drafted by British colonizers. So it's not a lost in translation type of thing for sure.

Learned something today. Now I wonder what penguin got pushed off the iceberg and what I can't remember as a result...
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