Can progressives learn anything from Republicans?

[Anomalocaris]

Sometimes..we imagine that the GOP "strategy" is a car that we can take all of the gop shit out of and fill full of other shit..but its not.  The racist bit is the fuckin wheels, it's not like a bag in the trunk.

Racist shit is just appealing to the morbid fear of those who think themselves entitled but did not equip themselves with real valuable ability.

Those who think themselves entitled but did not equip themselves with real valuable ability is the raw material readily exploited by any side, including the Russians. You can either exploit them better than everyone else, or you can make a Faustian deal with them, or you can imagine there is some bankable descency in them that provided no evidence of themselves until now. Russians did the first, republicans did the second, and democrats did the third.

There are many other ways to use the same strategy to manipulate an electorate that deserves no better.  What is amply understood on the other side and squeamishly denied on this side is ruthlessness is a indispensable virtue without which there can be no success, and it is not a virtue at all unless one is determined to always possess it in greater abundance than one’s opponents.

[John V]

I guess my question is, why do republicans keep winning with such bad ideas?  And whatever the method to the madness is, can democrats harness that for their good ideas?

The question speaks volumes about itself.

You should be talking to moderates who vote republican and asking, What are your concerns in life and how can we address them?

Instead, you go to the echo chamber and say, We know what's good for them better than they do - why won't they do as we say?

It's not just you. Lately I've seen lefties here and in social media saying that the problem is that people vote against their own interests.

[The Industrial Atheist]

I guess my question is, why do republicans keep winning with such bad ideas?  And whatever the method to the madness is, can democrats harness that for their good ideas?

The question speaks volumes about itself.

You should be talking to moderates who vote republican and asking, What are your concerns in life and how can we address them?

Instead, you go to the echo chamber and say, We know what's good for them better than they do - why won't they do as we say?

It's not just you. Lately I've seen lefties here and in social media saying that the problem is that people vote against their own interests.

Let me put it this way, my mom's boyfriend has voted both Democrat and Republican. He thinks Trump's tax plan is great. He was surprised when I told him almost all the cuts go to the wealthy (a verifiable fact) and that all the middle class tax cuts expire, while the ones for the rich don't. Obama's tax plan had more tax cuts for the middle class than Romney's. He made the Bush middle class tax cut's permanent.

Democrats are usually better than Republicans at giving tax cuts where there's the most need and the most benefit. They fail to capitalize on this. When the Republicans say "We'll let everyone keep their money." The Dems should say "We'll let YOU the average Joe's keep YOUR money and we'll do it better!"

Dem's need to be better at showing average people that they are better at having their best interests at heart. In a tangential sense you're almost right.

[TaraJo]

Sometimes..we imagine that the GOP "strategy" is a car that we can take all of the gop shit out of and fill full of other shit..but its not.  The racist bit is the fuckin wheels, it's not like a bag in the trunk.

Something about racism, though.

Lee and I watched a documentary on far right, alt-right, racist groups.  The film maker interviewed people in the KKK, in neo nazi groups and the people who bridge the gap between those groups and legitimate political power.  One of the things I found interesting was that the racist groups, they were incredibly well organized.  I don't mean organized like a militia; I mean they were organized like a PR firm.  In fact, most of these groups had PR people in them (that was most of who she talked to).  And their attention to PR has shown; there's less direct racism and you didn't hear them using the n-word nearly at all.  In fact, a lot of their talking points are alarmingly similar to Trumps talking points; they were talking about protecting America and Americans, but with a greater emphasis on 'white culture.'  

Part of what has made them successful is that they've been willing and able to change their talking points to something that's less repugnant to the general public.  And progressives should have an easy time with this; after all, if black people or women or hispanic people or glbt people are being mistreated by police or other government officials, it should be easy to translate that into something that the general public is eager to get behind.  But it's not happening.  Maybe it's just the fact that I'm kinda forced to be involved in some far-left groups, but it seems to me that they're completely unwilling to change their message in the slightest, weather it means they'll be successful or not.  

I hate the idea of being hostile towards intellectualism and academia, but I feel like a lot of progressives have become so ingrained in their far left, college kid mindset that they've completely lost sight of actual working class voters.  Find a factory worker who puts in 50 hours a week and is still struggling to pay his mortgage.  He won't have the same concerns as some upper-middle class college kid.   If that college kid is worried about gender inbalance on campus or racist twitter posts or transphobic video games, the factory worker doesn't care about those things because he's too worried about the possibility of his job being sent overseas.  Trump, to his credit, addressed these voters in his campaign; he claimed that he'd save American coal jobs and stop companies from going overseas; I know he didn't actually do any of those things (no matter how many times we try it, trickle down won't work that way), but the fact that he talked about those issues was more than what Hillary did.

Maybe if progressives want to be politically relevant again, they need to focus more on the people.  The democrats have gotten too distant, too removed from the general public and the public is starting to lose faith in them.

[The Industrial Atheist]

Sometimes..we imagine that the GOP "strategy" is a car that we can take all of the gop shit out of and fill full of other shit..but its not.  The racist bit is the fuckin wheels, it's not like a bag in the trunk.

Something about racism, though.

Lee and I watched a documentary on far right, alt-right, racist groups.  The film maker interviewed people in the KKK, in neo nazi groups and the people who bridge the gap between those groups and legitimate political power.  One of the things I found interesting was that the racist groups, they were incredibly well organized.  I don't mean organized like a militia; I mean they were organized like a PR firm.  In fact, most of these groups had PR people in them (that was most of who she talked to).  And their attention to PR has shown; there's less direct racism and you didn't hear them using the n-word nearly at all.  In fact, a lot of their talking points are alarmingly similar to Trumps talking points; they were talking about protecting America and Americans, but with a greater emphasis on 'white culture.'  

Part of what has made them successful is that they've been willing and able to change their talking points to something that's less repugnant to the general public.  And progressives should have an easy time with this; after all, if black people or women or hispanic people or glbt people are being mistreated by police or other government officials, it should be easy to translate that into something that the general public is eager to get behind.  But it's not happening.  Maybe it's just the fact that I'm kinda forced to be involved in some far-left groups, but it seems to me that they're completely unwilling to change their message in the slightest, weather it means they'll be successful or not.  

I hate the idea of being hostile towards intellectualism and academia, but I feel like a lot of progressives have become so ingrained in their far left, college kid mindset that they've completely lost sight of actual working class voters.  Find a factory worker who puts in 50 hours a week and is still struggling to pay his mortgage.  He won't have the same concerns as some upper-middle class college kid.   If that college kid is worried about gender inbalance on campus or racist twitter posts or transphobic video games, the factory worker doesn't care about those things because he's too worried about the possibility of his job being sent overseas.  Trump, to his credit, addressed these voters in his campaign; he claimed that he'd save American coal jobs and stop companies from going overseas; I know he didn't actually do any of those things (no matter how many times we try it, trickle down won't work that way), but the fact that he talked about those issues was more than what Hillary did.

Maybe if progressives want to be politically relevant again, they need to focus more on the people.  The democrats have gotten too distant, too removed from the general public and the public is starting to lose faith in them.

Dems are better on economic issues, but they need to get better still. Yes, they need focus more on economic issues, although I don't want any marginalized group to feel
forgotten or threatened.

They need to be better at expressing how much they already are better than republicans on economic issues.

I hate to say it, but part of why some of them don't talk about the economy is they don't want it to be exposed how they could do more.

Healthcare is an economic issue too, as medical debt is the No.1 cause of bankruptcy.

[John V]

Let me put it this way, my mom's boyfriend has voted both Democrat and Republican. He thinks Trump's tax plan is great. He was surprised when I told him almost all the cuts go to the wealthy (a verifiable fact) and that all the middle class tax cuts expire, while the ones for the rich don't. Obama's tax plan had more tax cuts for the middle class than Romney's. He made the Bush middle class tax cut's permanent.

Democrats are usually better than Republicans at giving tax cuts where there's the most need and the most benefit. They fail to capitalize on this. When the Republicans say "We'll let everyone keep their money." The Dems should say "We'll let YOU the average Joe's keep YOUR money and we'll do it better!"

Regarding taxes, the Dems - if they ever have power again - should tax the hell out of the 1%, or tell their base to STFU about it. When Obama came in, they should have set marginal rates going up as high as 70% on the obscenely wealthy. High tax rates demotivate people at lower income levels, but at some point (when they can't spend all they make anyway) it's just a game, and those people will continue working regardless of marginal rates.

Same with estate taxes. You need a sizable exclusion so that family businesses don't get wiped out, but at obscene wealth levels, they should have made some hefty rates.

But they didn't, and it's becoming all too apparent that they didn't because they and their friends are the ones who would be affected.

Dem's need to be better at showing average people that they are better at having their best interests at heart. In a tangential sense you're almost right.

Yep. Instead, they have the interests of illegal immigrants at heart.

[I_am_not_mafia]

There's one thing that progressive can learn from republicans.

How fascism gains power.

This is an extremely valuable lesson that keeps getting forgotten until the lesson gets relearned again.

[The Industrial Atheist]

Let me put it this way, my mom's boyfriend has voted both Democrat and Republican. He thinks Trump's tax plan is great. He was surprised when I told him almost all the cuts go to the wealthy (a verifiable fact) and that all the middle class tax cuts expire, while the ones for the rich don't. Obama's tax plan had more tax cuts for the middle class than Romney's. He made the Bush middle class tax cut's permanent.

Democrats are usually better than Republicans at giving tax cuts where there's the most need and the most benefit. They fail to capitalize on this. When the Republicans say "We'll let everyone keep their money." The Dems should say "We'll let YOU the average Joe's keep YOUR money and we'll do it better!"

Regarding taxes, the Dems - if they ever have power again - should tax the hell out of the 1%, or tell their base to STFU about it. When Obama came in, they should have set marginal rates going up as high as 70% on the obscenely wealthy. High tax rates demotivate people at lower income levels, but at some point (when they can't spend all they make anyway) it's just a game, and those people will continue working regardless of marginal rates.

Same with estate taxes. You need a sizable exclusion so that family businesses don't get wiped out, but at obscene wealth levels, they should have made some hefty rates.

But they didn't, and it's becoming all too apparent that they didn't because they and their friends are the ones who would be affected.

Dem's need to be better at showing average people that they are better at having their best interests at heart. In a tangential sense you're almost right.

Yep. Instead, they have the interests of illegal immigrants at heart.

I'm definitely with you on the first one.

As for the second:
My stance is that I don't want open borders. But I think those that have been here a certain time and have behaved themselves(while working) should have a path towards citizenship. They are Americans in most of the ways that count. I think those from South America and Central America that have come here legitimately to obtain refugee status should be looked at and treated humanely.

I think this is pretty close to what most average Democrat politicians would say.

Obama was pretty much as far left as you can be while still being establishment. He deported more people than anyone before him. His stance was to focus on those that commit criminal acts. Some of them committed very minor criminal acts, some none at all. My point is, most Dems aren't for an open border.

P-l-e-a-s-e don't tell me you want to spend billions on a border wall when there is zero net migration.

[John V]

My stance is that I don't want open borders. But I think those that have been here a certain time and have behaved themselves(while working) should have a path towards citizenship. They are Americans in most of the ways that count. I think those from South America and Central America that have come here legitimately to obtain refugee status should be looked at and treated humanely.

I think this is pretty close to what most average Democrat politicians would say.

Most average? Maybe. The problem is that it's the open boarders/abolish ICE sector of the party that gets most of the press, and the average Democrats (if they believe as you think) don't do anything to rein them in.

Same with racism. The average Democrat politician probably doesn't think that every person who voted for Trump is a racist, but that's the message that's getting out.

---

Another thing:

IMO Republicans are better at recognizing that there's far right, middle right, middle, middle left, and far left.

A lot of Dems seem to see only two groups: themselves and far right.

IOW, when they paint the real far right in a certain way, they paint so broadly that some in the middle feel included, and are offended.

[Mister Agenda]

There's a saying that democrats fall in love and republicans fall in line. Democrats are more likely to not vote if their favorite pick doesn't get the nomination.

Republicans are good at getting voter turnout, also, because if the Democrat wins, that's it for civilization.