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In the end, there's just what you personally believe
#21
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(August 11, 2018 at 7:48 pm)chimp3 Wrote: If your god was capable of proving itself I am sure that it could overcome the "laziness" of unbelievers. Seems to me "laziness" would be a rather weak position in the face of omnipotence.

He can, but he knows the reason why they are too "lazy" and unwilling to listen, is due to a disease, that when signs are manifested to a degree where the person is forced to perceive them and see the truth, their hearts further harden and oppose the proofs.

It happened time and time again, and so this time is waiting for the best time, to manifest his proof(s) to the great degree he surely will one day.

Hope springs eternal. But then, so do fools, morons, and liars.
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#22
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 10:30 am)Cyberman Wrote: How do you know these things?

Quran and the hadiths that provide light to it together can facilitate reflection upon proofs and reasoning, that builds up, and with that, knowledge and enlightenment build up.

And Quran and hadiths aren't acts of justice from God, rather, they are a mercy and an act of love and compassion from him,  and it's easily seen humans require compassion to our injustice and most of us can't be guided without God reaching out to us through his chosen ones.

(August 12, 2018 at 10:39 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(August 12, 2018 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: He can, but he knows the reason why they are too "lazy" and unwilling to listen, is due to a disease, that when signs are manifested to a degree where the person is forced to perceive them and see the truth, their hearts further harden and oppose the proofs.

It happened time and time again, and so this time is waiting for the best time, to manifest his proof(s) to the great degree he surely will one day.

Hope springs eternal.  But then, so do fools, morons, and liars.


I am not a fool or a moron or a liar.
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#23
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 10:43 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(August 12, 2018 at 10:39 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Hope springs eternal.  But then, so do fools, morons, and liars.

I am not a fool or a moron or a liar.

Said every fool, moron, and liar in history.
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#24
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 11, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Kit Wrote: Can Christians honestly state they've placed themselves in the shoes of the unbeliever?
They don't need too.  
I've been there, listening to irrational doubt as if it's legitimate and supposed to overwhelm the proofs and clear knowledge.
Doubt serves no purpose if it can't ever stop doubting what has no reason to be doubted. It would then equate what ought to be accepted with full tranquility with that which ought to not be.
And it serves no purpose if people settle with it and enjoy it, and take as a proof to deny knowledge, doubt should push people to search out proofs and knowledge, not as a means to deny it all together and dismiss proofs.
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#25
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 10:54 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(August 11, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Kit Wrote: Can Christians honestly state they've placed themselves in the shoes of the unbeliever?
They don't need too.  
I've been there, listening to irrational doubt as if it's legitimate and supposed to overwhelm the proofs and clear knowledge.
Doubt serves no purpose if it can't ever stop doubting what has no reason to be doubted. It would then equate what ought to be accepted with full tranquility with that which ought to not be.
And it serves no purpose if people settle with it and enjoy it, and take as a proof to deny knowledge, doubt should push people to search out proofs and knowledge, not as a means to deny it all together and dismiss proofs.

It isn't that there is any problem with skepticism, nor that there is a limit to which one should push skepticism and continue to reserve doubts. The problem is twofold. First, you were an incompetent skeptic, and rather than move from a position of doubt to agnosticism, as was justified by your inability to find answers, you chose instead to jump to a conclusion that itself was no better justified. Second, your belief was not based on reason, but rather was a pathetic response to the anxiety you felt about not being able to resolve the questions before you, and so is nothing but an empty emotional response, not a rational one. That you only struggled with the questions for a mere two weeks before pathetically giving up and running home crying to your former religious beliefs simply shows that you are a spineless and cowardly person.
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#26
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
Your perspective is noted. However, it's totally false.
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#27
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 10:43 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(August 12, 2018 at 10:30 am)Cyberman Wrote: How do you know these things?

Quran and the hadiths that provide light to it together can facilitate reflection upon proofs and reasoning, that builds up, and with that, knowledge and enlightenment build up.

And Quran and hadiths aren't acts of justice from God, rather, they are a mercy and an act of love and compassion from him,  and it's easily seen humans require compassion to our injustice and most of us can't be guided without God reaching out to us through his chosen ones.

So there's a kerrang verse or hadith that says

(August 12, 2018 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: [...] he knows the reason why they are too "lazy" and unwilling to listen, is due to a disease, that when signs are manifested to a degree where the person is forced to perceive them and see the truth, their hearts further harden and oppose the proofs.

?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#28
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 12, 2018 at 11:30 am)Cyberman Wrote:
(August 12, 2018 at 10:43 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Quran and the hadiths that provide light to it together can facilitate reflection upon proofs and reasoning, that builds up, and with that, knowledge and enlightenment build up.

And Quran and hadiths aren't acts of justice from God, rather, they are a mercy and an act of love and compassion from him,  and it's easily seen humans require compassion to our injustice and most of us can't be guided without God reaching out to us through his chosen ones.

So there's a kerrang verse or hadith that says

(August 12, 2018 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: [...] he knows the reason why they are too "lazy" and unwilling to listen, is due to a disease, that when signs are manifested to a degree where the person is forced to perceive them and see the truth, their hearts further harden and oppose the proofs.

?
Why don't you recite and find out?
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#29
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
Because I asked you a question.

See, here's the thing. If I were in a class and the teacher made a few vague deepities, then when asked about them she just brushed it off and blamed me for my apparent lack of understanding, and asking for clarity, I'd walk out because she's a terrible teacher.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#30
RE: In the end, there's just what you personally believe
(August 11, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Kit Wrote: Personal belief is too subjective for any reason to penetrate it.

Am I right?

You know I am.

You're going to believe what you want and fight tooth and nail against any kind of reasonable argument against what you believe because you have something almighty on your side that cannot be proven to exist yet it must exist simply because you believe that it does.

Who can argue against that kind of logic, am I right?

The problem with belief tends to stem from the inability to place one's self in another's shoes.

Can Christians honestly state they've placed themselves in the shoes of the unbeliever?

Isn't the main issue with life that we cannot adequately understand others and their viewpoints?

I can personally understand both ends of the spectrum.

The conclusion is that theists allow their egos more control than reason.  Atheists allow reason over ego.

Maybe on average but not always.

Ayn Rand was an atheist, and while she rejected god claims her ego certainly lead to her buying and selling "fuck you I got mine" bad economics.

Stalin was also an atheist, but his ego lead him to become a dictator.

Now, while my younger sister was an atheist, she has since falling back into some sort of afterlife belief.

I wouldn't claim every atheist is as educated as Hawking. Just because we share the "off" position does not mean we have well thought out reasons for it.

Being right about something, doesn't mean you are educated in why you are right.

I have run into plenty of atheists who reject god claims, but have never read Dawkins or Victor Stenger or Harris, and stop at "It doesn't make any sense". They may  be right, but it is important to know why you are right.
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