On Hell and Forgiveness

[SteveII]

Wow! I though you would just drop it when you couldn't find it. You want to double down. No, I don't know what you are talking about. Please provide

Really, Steve? Are you playing here? Or you seriously don't know what it is I might be talking about here. It's not like this is something I concocted personally myself out of nowhere. This is something that Christians themselves ponder among each other all the time.

I'll assume that you really have no clue, so here:

Mark 14:35-36 (and similar passages)

Why would he do such a thing? If only the passage explained it...oh wait:

32 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”


35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

Apparently having the sins of the entire world about to be put on your shoulders has an effect. Who would have thought!

LOL. You're arguing against your point. I'll repeat: So when one is describing attributes of God, one is NOT also describing attributes of Jesus BECAUSE Jesus had two natures: a divine nature and a human nature. These are not hard dots to connect...

Repeating doesn't make your point less wrong. You are going on about how Jesus and God are two distinct entities, but that's not what I'm disputing here in this thread. I'm saying the following instead:

If Jesus the Man did something, then Jesus the God also did that same thing. Since Jesus experienced weakness, and Jesus is God (note I didn't say Jesus is the whole of Trinity or whatever), then Jesus the God (who is the exact same person as Jesus the Man) also had to have experienced that weakness.

For an atheist like me, this is all nonsense. But if you presume the Hypostatic Union, that's where it leads.[/quote]

Well, you failed at showing Jesus showed fear, so isn't this all moot?

[Haipule]

John 1 clearly says, in the Greek, that the Word and God are one and that the Word made everything that has been made and became flesh in the person of Jesus--The Living Word. Therefore Jesus is God and man. The word 'Father' refers to the head of the house "who's house we are". Jesus is the head of the house: the Father.

"How long have you been with me Phillip?' "Those who have been seeing have been seeing the Father!' "How is it you ask me 'show to us the Father?'"

The so called 'Holy Spirit" is just batshit crazy! And, is not found in the Greek, or Hebrew. The word 'Trinity' comes from the Latin trinitas and was coined by a batshit crazy Latin speaker named Tertullian in the 2nd century.

[GrandizerII]

Why would he do such a thing? If only the passage explained it...oh wait:

32 They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray.” 33 He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. 34 “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”


35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

Apparently having the sins of the entire world about to be put on your shoulders has an effect. Who would have thought!

An effect that involves fear of suffering. You went back a few verses to look for the words you wanted, but how about you try to translate Mark 14:36 in light of your interpretation that it was just sorrow. Was Jesus simply just too sorrowful to want to suffer for humankind?

"Oh, I'm not scared or anything, but it gives me much sorrow to have to suffer for others!"

Yeah, right. How about you check this quote from John Calvin on this passage:

Christ, amidst fear and sadness, was weak without any taint of sin.

Well, you failed at showing Jesus showed fear, so isn't this all moot?

That's mainstream Christian teaching, Steve. It's not my personal interpretation. You think you have it all figured out, do you?

If Jesus showed fear, then this means fear and consequently bravery becomes relevant when it comes to God's "great-making" properties. Since your God saw it fit to experience various weaknesses in human flesh, all these weaknesses should become a matter of consideration in deciding what makes for divine greatness. You can no longer argue that your God does not experience fear if he can indeed do so (according to your favorite book).

[Amarok]

Why would he do such a thing? If only the passage explained it...oh wait:

Apparently having the sins of the entire world about to be put on your shoulders has an effect. Who would have thought!

An effect that involves fear of suffering. You went back a few verses to look for the words you wanted, but how about you try to translate Mark 14:36 in light of your interpretation that it was just sorrow. Was Jesus simply just too sorrowful to want to suffer for humankind?

"Oh, I'm not scared or anything, but it gives me much sorrow to have to suffer for others!"

Yeah, right. How about you check this quote from John Calvin on this passage:

Christ, amidst fear and sadness, was weak without any taint of sin.

Well, you failed at showing Jesus showed fear, so isn't this all moot?

That's mainstream Christian teaching, Steve. It's not my personal interpretation. You think you have it all figured out, do you?

If Jesus showed fear, then this means fear and consequently bravery becomes relevant when it comes to God's "great-making" properties. Since your God saw it fit to experience various weaknesses in human flesh, all these weaknesses should become a matter of consideration in deciding what makes for divine greatness. You can no longer argue that your God does not experience fear if he can indeed do so (according to your favorite book).

Yet another example of Steve,s arrogance ah Grand .

[Haipule]

An effect that involves fear of suffering. You went back a few verses to look for the words you wanted, but how about you try to translate Mark 14:36 in light of your interpretation that it was just sorrow. Was Jesus simply just too sorrowful to want to suffer for humankind?

"Oh, I'm not scared or anything, but it gives me much sorrow to have to suffer for others!"

Yeah, right. How about you check this quote from John Calvin on this passage:



That's mainstream Christian teaching, Steve. It's not my personal interpretation. You think you have it all figured out, do you?

If Jesus showed fear, then this means fear and consequently bravery becomes relevant when it comes to God's "great-making" properties. Since your God saw it fit to experience various weaknesses in human flesh, all these weaknesses should become a matter of consideration in deciding what makes for divine greatness. You can no longer argue that your God does not experience fear if he can indeed do so (according to your favorite book).

Yet another example of Steve,s arrogance ah Grand .

I don't care how you read the bible but, Jesus did NOT ask that the "cup" be taken from Him as a fear component. He didn't want to deal with it. He asked, "not according to my terms but, according to yours!" "but, take it away non the less!" In other words, Jesus asked that this "cup" be taken from Him in any way possible! His prayer was answered in the negative. It was His cup to drink! He drank it nontheless.

But, He suffered nothing in doing so except death. In spite of unimaginable torcher, He did not cry out! That means He was given a capacity to feel nothing except pleasure. And that, in spite of being scourged! If fact, He felt nothing but pleasure/goodness every time He was struck. That's not in the bible but, I have experienced torcher without pain--only pleasure/goodness(that drug, whatever it is, does not SUCK!). I put 2 and 2 together and had an "ah ha" moment.

The neurotransmitters of the human brain can do this. I have experienced this as well! IT's ALL good at that point! Pain is impossible at that point!

He never felt those nails driving into Him!

God was proving his love for mankind, right them, not Jesus' ability to endure pain! And that event was only about God's love for mankind! ONLY! And that event was shrouded in darkness and was a private matter between God and Jesus! It is a history lesson that NO man can add to, nor take away from. It is a done deal. Believe what!

Therefore, Hyper-Literal: For(conjunction assigning a reason) thusly, (2)thee God, (1)He-agapaO-loves* (3-)thee kosmos-world even-as-and thee Son of-Him-same, namely--thee uniquely-begotten, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(not a “one shot” decision but continuous, repeated, customary action--do not argue with Greek present participles!) into Him-same no he-might-be(acting upon themselves--stupidly)-rendered-useless (keep-on trusting into Him and you cannot screw it up!) but-rather he-might-be(and continue)-having zOE-life(feminine), breath-being-belong-to-her(right here, right now!). John 3:16

Christianity, in spite of what has been taught, is NOT a belief system for the insanely stupid! It's just a matter of trusting the Great Shepherd to lead you through this life, to glorification/extolment/magnificent so that you CAN'T fuck it up!

I offer my life as anecdotal evidence!

You say, "Bill, that's just anecdotal!" IT'S STILL A PART OF HISTORY!

[Amarok]

Yet another example of Steve,s arrogance ah Grand .

I don't care how you read the bible but, Jesus did NOT ask that the "cup" be taken from Him as a fear component. He didn't want to deal with it. He asked, "not according to my terms but, according to yours!" "but, take it away non the less!" In other words, Jesus asked that this "cup" be taken from Him in any way possible! His prayer was answered in the negative. It was His cup to drink! He drank it nontheless.

But, He suffered nothing in doing so except death. In spite of unimaginable torcher, He did not cry out! That means He was given a capacity to feel nothing except pleasure. And that, in spite of being scourged! If fact, He felt nothing but pleasure/goodness every time He was struck. That's not in the bible but, I have experienced torcher without pain--only pleasure/goodness(that drug, whatever it is, does not SUCK!). I put 2 and 2 together and had an "ah ha" moment.

The neurotransmitters of the human brain can do this. I have experienced this as well! IT's ALL good at that point! Pain is impossible at that point!

He never felt those nails driving into Him!

God was proving his love for mankind, right them, not Jesus' ability to endure pain! And that event was only about God's love for mankind! ONLY! And that event was shrouded in darkness and was a private matter between God and Jesus! It is a history lesson that NO man can add to, nor take away from. It is a done deal. Believe what!

Therefore, Hyper-Literal: For(conjunction assigning a reason) thusly, (2)thee God, (1)He-agapaO-loves* (3-)thee kosmos-world even-as-and thee Son of-Him-same, namely--thee uniquely-begotten, He-gives* that(purpose) any thee one-keeps-on-trusting(not a “one shot” decision but continuous, repeated, customary action--do not argue with Greek present participles!) into Him-same no he-might-be(acting upon themselves--stupidly)-rendered-useless (keep-on trusting into Him and you cannot screw it up!) but-rather he-might-be(and continue)-having zOE-life(feminine), breath-being-belong-to-her(right here, right now!). John 3:16

Christianity, in spite of what has been taught, is NOT a belief system for the insanely stupid! It's just a matter of trusting the Great Shepherd to lead you through this life, to glorification/extolment/magnificent so that you CAN'T fuck it up!

I offer my life as anecdotal evidence!

You say, "Bill, that's just anecdotal!" IT'S STILL A PART OF HISTORY!

So a bunch of crazy to be the cherry on top of Steve's pompous nonsense 

[GrandizerII]

Yeah, hard to take Haipule seriously. He's too comical.

[Angrboda]

If Jesus didn't suffer, then how is that proof of God's love?

[Haipule]

If Jesus didn't suffer, then how is that proof of God's love?

Jesus suffered much those days; from the kangaroo court to the cross, but not pain--obviously! Man was put off track by the parabasis(motion against a fixed point or standard) of Adam. NO ONE IS PUNISHED FOR SIN! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SIN"! The word translated as "sin", which is hamartia, means: to be off-course, wayward, errant. Adam did that: you didn't!


Man was put off-course because of what Adam did not because of what we dodo! That action of Adam made man subjected to death as a ruler--"And death ruled from Adam until Moses"--when the animal offerings set the things of death aside until the proper ransom payment(translated "reconciliation"). 

The death of God, which was the price enacted, paid that price on that cross on that day! Done deal we cannot add to or take away from!


Because that paid payment declared man as right: Jesus rose the third day because He had no reason then--to be dead! 


All we can do is say "Thank You"! And, since that death declared death to be dysfunctional--we pursue the life of God's promise through seeking, His Faith, His Hope, His Love, His Righteousness to our own glorification which alone glorifies God!


The zOE-life of God's promised joy, given in Scripture, was given us so that we CANNOT screw it up through self direction, religion and hang-ups! See the problem? 


The bible is just a book to give us direction, to and in life, so that we do not FIU with stupidity like belief systems, religion and theology!


Unfortunately, the authority, power and money of the "Church" makes them "the blind leading the blind into pits of darkness!" Maybe you have met some of them?

[Angrboda]

Question not answered.