Are there any Christian proselytizers left in this subforum?

[vulcanlogician]

-But that's the whole game.  We go shot for shot trying to have difficult discussions until one of us starts slurring their words! 

Well, I'm sober now. We can can start round 2 if you want or just leave it at: "I value theists. You don't."

We might as well just leave it though. We don't see eye to eye. As a show of good faith, I won't even mention that MLK and Gandhi were both incredible human beings, whose work was heavily informed by their theistic outlook.

[Bucky Ball]

MK, I consider you a friend and a brother. And I truly appreciate your insights.

Thank you. I consider you and Catholic_Lady my brothers and sisters, but I am currently too upset with Catholic_Lady for her words over Israel and Palestine issue to talk to her.

I've come to believe the Gospels were literally word of God expressed differently to each Apostle, that is so they paraphrase and interpret one another.

The Torah, Psalms, and Gospels are amazing.

The "apostles" had nothing to do with the writing of the gospels. 
Originally they were anonymous. The names ("evangelists') were slapped on much later. 
You really should take Bible 101.

---

Neo- the trial of good and evil was about love and envy, and remains so to this day.

From Cain killing Abel, to now, God only accepting from those who guard and hold to on to his beautiful names and words of light he brought to life, remains a fact.

Instead of killing us, they will Character attack us as intolerant people who see others who don't think like them then going to hell.  For their freedoms of sinning against God, they will justify all the collateral damage and as you can see the blood of Yemen hurts no one, doesn't budge anyone, and no one cares.

God didn't accept the Devil when he didn't appreciate the gift of God Adam, and those who are ungrateful for his Messengers and those who Hold the Authority after God put a seal to revelations, are jealous of the true kings who God's specialized his grace, and their hate is taken out on their followers.

The fact is there in no way to God but through his door of light, and those outside the door can talk about the light, sure, but from a far place, they can take some of it's characteristics and cloth themselves with, but when they hate it for what is, the connection to God it is, the light of God revealed by God and who others must hold on to....

When they hate it for what is, they are not inside of it, but trying to confuse people and lower what the light is.... they try to trivialize and take away it's sacred origin, link, and it leading back to the source, which it's goal.

The leader is the light and the light is the leader, those who could not see the risen star from the family of David/Aaron/Moses, disbelieved in the whole wisdom of the Torah regarding the family of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and the talk of envy with respect to that.

Those who deny the family of Yaseen, it doesn't matter what reminder and family they hold on to, if they have access to the reminder and it's family and the truth has pushed them to them, but they turn with envy and want to hold on to the anti-Christ type leadership which is human chosen leadership as opposed to anointed kings type leadership that the Torah, Gospels, and Quran emphasize on...

Those who hate the family of the reminder will perish, and those who don't believe in the family of reminder but don't have an ounce of hatred towards the reminder and it's family, and don't hold a grudge against their followers, and don't support those who oppress them... they will enter heaven but a much lower level then those who sought the truth.

This how Torah and Gospels and Quran described good and evil, so don't act ignorantly about it.

Those who fear the light of God because of it's judgment on them, don't let them belittle who you are, and finish your journey by coming to the final reminder and it's designated kings, guides who are like the past guides, in a group known as "the family", and they are the family of guidance and the household of revelation.

That's actually not how the Torah described "evil". At all. You made that up. 
You ought to read ( the famous Jewish philosopher) Martin Buber's "Good and Evil".

[GUBU]

I organized such a discussion. It was set-up as a panel discussion among Christians to discuss a topic relevant to Christians. The topic was why Christians participate on AF. Some non-Christian members were upset because they weren't invited. Other non-Christian members didn't appreciate the existence of a discussion they couldn't derail. And a couple non-Christians were appalled that Christians would consider fulfilling their duty in the Great Commission as one of their reasons for contributing to AF.

It became clear to me, from comments on the parallel 'peanut gallery' thread and private messages, that a very sizable number of prominent AF members resented our presence on AF. People I thought were my friends, or who I respected despite our philosophical differences, actually held me in contempt...not just forum trash talk or playful banter,...no, real true contempt. My experience was not unique. Other Christian members seemed equally dismayed. Lots of PMs were exchanged. Many of us believers have either scaled back, withdrawn, or opted out entirely.

That's fucked up, Neo. I was honored to be a moderator in that debate, and any atheists who resent your presence on the forum ("your" meaning theists) need to consider the fact that a dialectic is the only way we can honestly unearth truth via interaction. And there can be no dialectic without disagreement. I, for one, don't resent theists' presence here. I'll admit, I've gotten angry/flustered during the course of a debate with a theist (last one I can remember is Alpha Male) but usually this indicates investment in the discussion and is a good thing.

I want to hear from anyone who has the balls to answer these two questions, and I promise a response: Do you think this forum would be better without any theists? How?

I think the polar disagreements make things interesting, personally.

edit: I only promise a response if you quote me so I get notified. (Didn't think to say that.)

I don't resent religious people on this forum. I do however people telling me they're better, more koral and righter than I am simply because they believe & I don't. I also resent people who pretend to be reasonable while al along cheering on the worst behaviours of the first type.

Unfortunately the theists here are currently way too inclined to indulge in bad behaviour (TTA refugees excepted).

---

@Khem

So what about you in the room for twenty years: Aquinas or the atheist who thinks Sammy Hagar is the deepest musician ever and hates the Beatles? (That's the most anti-intellectual thing I can think of rn).

I'd go with the atheist, at least he's honestly ignorant.

[Angrboda]

An ignorant atheist can be persuaded of the truth. An educated theist cannot. You say we're going to spend forever with one or the other?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Did you just imply "I know where you live."?

No. Nor do I have any idea how you got that out of my post.

But let me tell you a little bit about where I live, Neo. Most of my childhood, I've lived in rural Appalachia. I spent most of my years in a trailer of some kind or other (though we had houses at various points). I grew up very poor. My friends were all very poor. My parents did a lot of work to create structure and safety for me in my life. But not all of my friends were so lucky. So when I say something like "cursed with white trash parents" I'm not trivializing large groups of Americans in "flyover country." I'm talking about real pieces of shit that I knew growing up. People who didn't take care of their property, themselves, or their kids. My best friend lived in absolute squalor. So many times, so many children with so much potential are subjected to a life that is simply beneath them. And the real sad thing is: all that potential goes untapped because these kids are raised by people who are too stupid to recognize their potential in the first place.

I just wanted to give a little context to my "white trash" comment. You can go back and read it if you want. When I said it, I wasn't sneering at an entire American subclass.

---

Rather, I was thinking of actual  people I knew who grew up in that subclass (an upbringing often rounded out with religious indoctrination) wanting to break free of the stranglehold of their encompassing culture. Wanting to work on their intellectual dimension... stuff like that.

And even after my childhood, my sister is an elementary school teacher, so I get to hear about her dealing with opiate-addicted assholes who decided to have kids. One girl is an honor student who often stays with my sister for extended periods. She is very, very bright, but receives ZERO help from her stupid-ass parents concerning school matters. Her home life is a mess. Her last extended stay with my sister was due to her mother having been stabbed by her father following a drunken brawl. I have disdain for these sorts of people. And I also have a handy term I use to categorize them: white trash.

As an aside, I'm sure the term could be easily applied to me, based on outward appearances (and probably has been). After all, I'm only slightly less poor than I was growing up.

---

I appreciate your willingness to reveal personal details about your life. While you may feel justified in using such pejoratives given your unique life experiences, I would still suggest that in an online forum (as opposed to private conversation) such references reinforce the common prejudices of many atheists (and some theists) who hold people with rural backgrounds, such as myself, and residents of the so-called Bible Belt, it utmost contempt.

I'm sorry for reading too much in post. A little trash talk that included "...he's identified himself fully" sounded a bit ominous to me.

[robvalue]

An ignorant atheist can be persuaded of the truth.  An educated theist cannot.  You say we're going to spend forever with one or the other?

Nah, just the theist. The atheist will eventually die

[I_am_not_mafia]

I organized such a discussion. It was set-up as a panel discussion among Christians to discuss a topic relevant to Christians. The topic was why Christians participate on AF. Some non-Christian members were upset because they weren't invited. Other non-Christian members didn't appreciate the existence of a discussion they couldn't derail. And a couple non-Christians were appalled that Christians would consider fulfilling their duty in the Great Commission as one of their reasons for contributing to AF.

It became clear to me, from comments on the parallel 'peanut gallery' thread and private messages, that a very sizable number of prominent AF members resented our presence on AF. People I thought were my friends, or who I respected despite our philosophical differences, actually held me in contempt...not just forum trash talk or playful banter,...no, real true contempt. My experience was not unique. Other Christian members seemed equally dismayed. Lots of PMs were exchanged. Many of us believers have either scaled back, withdrawn, or opted out entirely.

That's fucked up, Neo. I was honored to be a moderator in that debate, and any atheists who resent your presence on the forum ("your" meaning theists) need to consider the fact that a dialectic is the only way we can honestly unearth truth via interaction. And there can be no dialectic without disagreement. I, for one, don't resent theists' presence here. I'll admit, I've gotten angry/flustered during the course of a debate with a theist (last one I can remember is Alpha Male) but usually this indicates investment in the discussion and is a good thing.

I want to hear from anyone who has the balls to answer these two questions, and I promise a response: Do you think this forum would be better without any theists? How?

I think the polar disagreements make things interesting, personally.

edit: I only promise a response if you quote me so I get notified. (Didn't think to say that.)

As usual Neo is missing the point entirely.

[Angrboda]

For what it's worth, I found the white trash reference over the line. And I don't think your explanation justifies it. It was prejudicial and derogatory.

[Neo-Scholastic]

For what it's worth, I found the white trash reference over the line.  And I don't think your explanation justifies it.  It was prejudicial and derogatory.

I'm giving him a pass if for no other reason than he admitted to having drank too much. Many people say things in hyperbolic ways without context while under the influence. I know I have. (Is it 5 o'clock yet?)

[Mystic]

Thank you. I consider you and Catholic_Lady my brothers and sisters, but I am currently too upset with Catholic_Lady for her words over Israel and Palestine issue to talk to her.

I've come to believe the Gospels were literally word of God expressed differently to each Apostle, that is so they paraphrase and interpret one another.

The Torah, Psalms, and Gospels are amazing.

The "apostles" had nothing to do with the writing of the gospels. 
Originally they were anonymous. The names ("evangelists') were slapped on much later. 
You really should take Bible 101.

---

Neo- the trial of good and evil was about love and envy, and remains so to this day.

From Cain killing Abel, to now, God only accepting from those who guard and hold to on to his beautiful names and words of light he brought to life, remains a fact.

Instead of killing us, they will Character attack us as intolerant people who see others who don't think like them then going to hell.  For their freedoms of sinning against God, they will justify all the collateral damage and as you can see the blood of Yemen hurts no one, doesn't budge anyone, and no one cares.

God didn't accept the Devil when he didn't appreciate the gift of God Adam, and those who are ungrateful for his Messengers and those who Hold the Authority after God put a seal to revelations, are jealous of the true kings who God's specialized his grace, and their hate is taken out on their followers.

The fact is there in no way to God but through his door of light, and those outside the door can talk about the light, sure, but from a far place, they can take some of it's characteristics and cloth themselves with, but when they hate it for what is, the connection to God it is, the light of God revealed by God and who others must hold on to....

When they hate it for what is, they are not inside of it, but trying to confuse people and lower what the light is.... they try to trivialize and take away it's sacred origin, link, and it leading back to the source, which it's goal.

The leader is the light and the light is the leader, those who could not see the risen star from the family of David/Aaron/Moses, disbelieved in the whole wisdom of the Torah regarding the family of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and the talk of envy with respect to that.

Those who deny the family of Yaseen, it doesn't matter what reminder and family they hold on to, if they have access to the reminder and it's family and the truth has pushed them to them, but they turn with envy and want to hold on to the anti-Christ type leadership which is human chosen leadership as opposed to anointed kings type leadership that the Torah, Gospels, and Quran emphasize on...

Those who hate the family of the reminder will perish, and those who don't believe in the family of reminder but don't have an ounce of hatred towards the reminder and it's family, and don't hold a grudge against their followers, and don't support those who oppress them... they will enter heaven but a much lower level then those who sought the truth.

This how Torah and Gospels and Quran described good and evil, so don't act ignorantly about it.

Those who fear the light of God because of it's judgment on them, don't let them belittle who you are, and finish your journey by coming to the final reminder and it's designated kings, guides who are like the past guides, in a group known as "the family", and they are the family of guidance and the household of revelation.

That's actually not how the Torah described "evil". At all. You made that up. 
You ought to read ( the famous Jewish philosopher) Martin Buber's "Good and Evil".

I read the Torah and iterates things in a particular order, and love and envy is the central divisions of good and evil, particular, how we love people like Isaac and Joseph, or envy them, or how their followers are treated like the children of Israel were oppressed for similar reasons Cain killed Abel.

To say otherwise, is just to read the Torah as iterating meaningless stories, but if you take as insights and neither assume the stories are historical accurate nor that they are not, you will see an eternal wisdom that although the particular details cannot be prove, the over all structure of God's way has to be.

The images and words of God brought to life, are the door which God tries humans by.  He could have made them Angels, he could have made it that we all directly are guided, but he has tried both the hidden beings (devils, demons, and Angels included) and humans with regards to how they approach the authority of this anointed kings and how they reject the man made authorities which are all anti-christs.

Most of the Torah is on this theme though some of it diverts from it's central thesis which the Quran corrects and points out, like the story of Saul the Quran corrects, no doubt the family of Abraham was made to make way to the family of Aaron/Moses/David..... 

And no doubt the twelve children of Ishmael were to safeguard the number of successors of the promised anointed King in the offspring of Ishmael, which are twelve princes.

And no doubt the twelve children of Jacob and the dream of Joseph, had double interpretations, both correct, and both show the successors of Abraham, were twelve, and the successors of Moses would be twelve, although it particular, it referred to twelve sons of Jacob prostrating to Joseph in a moment.

And there is no doubt the one who God would sent to release the knot of Moses per his prayer is Mohammad although God did rightly get upset and tell him, why look so far, while you have Aaron, which shows Aaron would succeed him.

Why look so far to enlightenment humans with wisdom and release the veils are their hearts, when you have Aaron and his blessed chosen offspring, are sanctified and anointed to purify and lead the children of Israel, a covenant from God which cannot be broken.

And yes the Torah does 180 on that, but it goes back to this emphasis later with the family of David, and if the house of David and offspring is special, so then was David linked to a special line back to Aaron though people might want to make this unclear.

There is no doubt that love to thy neighbour and love to God, is properly done by the mystic link that connects us all and unites us and establishes our rights.

Jesus manifested this position in the most explicit way, in which Mohammad said he could speak similar words about Ali except he felt fear people would do the same regarding Ali as they did with Jesus (misinterpret the words to the pointing of associate others with God and disbelieving his oneness).

And there is no doubt an emphasis idolatry in it's truest sense where those who attach themselves to leaders who by claiming leadership had thereby named themselves with the name of God and all corruption stems from following people with no proof from God.

The Torah is almost all beautiful. So is the Psalms. So are MOST of the Gospels and I give zero weight to Paul personally.