Most humans aren't too logical when it comes to world views and how to go about it.

[Alan V]

You are shifting the burden of proof. 

If there is a burden proof on me to show my path to be true, then there is burden for people to listen to the proofs and see them as they truly are.  It's not good enough to dismiss what is offered as proofs, rather, one must show they properly understood or if they have not, to dialogue for clarification, but this mocking attitude, is all signs of how Quran has described how people act to the clear proofs when presented.

If there is a burden proof and I have to elaborate, then there should a burden to listen and not only that but a burden to show you are sincerely listening and have understood the arguments and to point which premise is disputable, unclear, or unproven, and simply asserting a premise is doesn't disprove it, so there is need for dialogue.

What Atheists have shown me in these years, they don't take the responsibility to listen to those burdened with proof.

I wanted to avoid repeating my story in this forum, but I guess I'll have to considering your points.

I studied Sufi mysticism from 1975 to 2000, and I studied Islam sympathetically for seven of those years, from approximately 1986 to 1993.  I thought the Sufi/Islamic God-concept was a big improvement over the Christian God-concept.  Like many other religious people, I learned the various arguments supporting both religion and mysticism. 

And after all of that, I abandoned my studies and gave about 100 books to a university library when I fell out with other students over my interpretations of lucid dreaming experiences (which I understood as self-generated rather than psychologically revealing or mystically inspired). 

Then in 2006, my God-concept finally fell apart.  When I turned to atheistic perspectives, I found they answered all of my questions.  One such question was about the burden of proof.  I had been convinced by theists to take it on myself, but on the assurance that real knowledge was forthcoming.  This assurance turned out to just be holding out promises.  No evidential proofs were ever offered.

Because of the many years I invested in such studies, with nothing like a real return on my investments of time and efforts, I side with atheists in saying that non-believers have no burden of proof.  Further, atheists do indeed have answers for all the points typically offered to support theistic concepts.  We disagree that you or any other theists "see them as they truly are."  You should assume most all atheists have already heard such points repeatedly.

Mocking is generally reserved for theists who repeat the same tired points endlessly, without offering evidence and without extending the same sympathetic "burden to listen" to atheists.

[Rahn127]

I would change the title from "Most" to "Some"

Most people have a fairly good handle on how the world works.

Earth rotates on it's axis and orbits our Sun.
Most people work and live in the country they were born in.
They are generally aware of their own countries history and the generic history of human kind, but many still don't accept the findings of science in the area of evolution.

As world views go, I think the view of the world is best seen from the peak of a mountain.

My world view is that this world is all natural.
It's naked and wants to be explored.

[Mystic]

If there is a burden proof on me to show my path to be true, then there is burden for people to listen to the proofs and see them as they truly are.  It's not good enough to dismiss what is offered as proofs, rather, one must show they properly understood or if they have not, to dialogue for clarification, but this mocking attitude, is all signs of how Quran has described how people act to the clear proofs when presented.

If there is a burden proof and I have to elaborate, then there should a burden to listen and not only that but a burden to show you are sincerely listening and have understood the arguments and to point which premise is disputable, unclear, or unproven, and simply asserting a premise is doesn't disprove it, so there is need for dialogue.

What Atheists have shown me in these years, they don't take the responsibility to listen to those burdened with proof.

I wanted to avoid repeating my story in this forum, but I guess I'll have to considering your points.

I studied Sufi mysticism from 1975 to 2000, and I studied Islam sympathetically for seven of those years, from approximately 1986 to 1993.  I thought the Sufi/Islamic God-concept was a big improvement over the Christian God-concept.  Like many other religious people, I learned the various arguments supporting both religion and mysticism. 

And after all of that, I abandoned my studies and gave about 100 books to a university library when I fell out with other students over my interpretations of lucid dreaming experiences (which I understood as self-generated rather than psychologically revealing or mystically inspired). 

Then in 2006, my God-concept finally fell apart.  When I turned to atheistic perspectives, I found they answered all of my questions.  One such question was about the burden of proof.  I had been convinced by theists to take it on myself, but on the assurance that real knowledge was forthcoming.  This assurance turned out to just be holding out promises.  No evidential proofs were ever offered.

Because of the many years I invested in such studies, with nothing like a real return on my investments of time and efforts, I side with atheists in saying that non-believers have no burden of proof.  Further, atheists do indeed have answers for all the points typically offered to support theistic concepts.  We disagree that you or any other theists "see them as they truly are."  You should assume most all atheists have already heard such points repeatedly.

Mocking is generally reserved for theists who repeat the same tired points endlessly, without offering evidence and without extending the same sympathetic "burden to listen" to atheists.

Here is a poem I wrote some time back:


You can look at the extension,
And his rope extends to you,
Find him in the lowest earth,
Absent is he is not from you,

You can look towards the sky,
And see its endless expansion,
Knowing there is no limit,
To the skyward sword,

Or you can look towards the path,
And it's connection,
And where it's leading to,
Knowing diverting from it leads to perpetual wrath,

Or you can look towards the sacredness of love,
Of compassion, mercy, and gratitude,
Seeing a hidden language in this dove,
That flies to the sacred and drinks from it springs,
Where it not for the good acts aimed skyward,
It would die and burn its wings.

You can remember the vision you cannot escape
And rely on to value yourself and others,
The witness who defines us as we are,
Have no doubt he is ever with you,
Seeing and Hearing by which you know the truth,
So don't act like you have no clue

Or you can look towards life,
And it appreciate it,
And know that which ought to be appreciated most by definition,
Is proven to be a living being.
Not an imagination,
But greatness we are connected to,

Or you can look at the guidance emanating,
But from where?
Other than the witness and eternal judge,
There is no candidate

And the guide is a witness from him,
Sees through his light,
Vision from truth,
But even his perception is not absolute,

And all are created through that truth,
He perceives all perceptions but perceptions perceive him not,
You know this to be true,
So again, do not like you have no clue! 




[comment] This contains the moral argument and others, and shows a way out of your doubts.

[Minimalist]

Your. Book. Is. Not. Proof.

His book is lousy poetry.

[HappySkeptic]

Here is a poem I wrote some time back:


You can look at the extension,
And his rope extends to you,
Find him in the lowest earth,
Absent is he is not from you,

You can look towards the sky,
And see its endless expansion,
Knowing there is no limit,
To the skyward sword,

Or you can look towards the path,
And it's connection,
And where it's leading to,
Knowing diverting from it leads to perpetual wrath,

Or you can look towards the sacredness of love,
Of compassion, mercy, and gratitude,
Seeing a hidden language in this dove,
That flies to the sacred and drinks from it springs,
Where it not for the good acts aimed skyward,
It would die and burn its wings.

You can remember the vision you cannot escape
And rely on to value yourself and others,
The witness who defines us as we are,
Have no doubt he is ever with you,
Seeing and Hearing by which you know the truth,
So don't act like you have no clue

Or you can look towards life,
And it appreciate it,
And know that which ought to be appreciated most by definition,
Is proven to be a living being.
Not an imagination,
But greatness we are connected to,

Or you can look at the guidance emanating,
But from where?
Other than the witness and eternal judge,
There is no candidate

And the guide is a witness from him,
Sees through his light,
Vision from truth,
But even his perception is not absolute,

And all are created through that truth,
He perceives all perceptions but perceptions perceive him not,
You know this to be true,
So again, do not like you have no clue! 




[comment] This contains the moral argument and others, and shows a way out of your doubts.

I'm not enamored of the poetry (though I claim no gift their either), but the theology is truly awful.

love would not die if there were no god.  Your life would not be without guidance (from conscience, reason, and upbringing, and society) if there were no god.

You have imagined a god for yourself, but we do not see it as evidence of anything beyond your mind.

[KevinM1]

As a gamer, I giggled at 'skyward sword'.  Because, well....

[Whateverist]

If there is a burden proof on me to show my path to be true, then there is burden for people to listen to the proofs and see them as they truly are. 

..

What Atheists have shown me in these years, they don't take the responsibility to listen to those burdened with proof.

Honestly I don't see why. Of course you have a burden of proof if you're claiming that we should accept your assertion as true. But no, no one is required to listen to every claim every person cares to make about anything under the sun. Life is too short. We all decide which assertions are just too beyond the pale to bother with. Any claim involving the supernatural or creation from nothing is just a non-starter as far as I'm concerned. Nothing personal.

---

...but it's a magic book!  

Does it actually say so on the cover.  So many people never bother to check.

[Minimalist]

MK - and others - seem to think that if they regurgitate their holy horseshit in dribs and drabs it will make an impression on us.  If I wanted to read the fucking thing I would force myself to do so.  I have tried on occasion but it is just dreadfully boring shit.

[Alan V]

And the guide is a witness from him,
Sees through his light,
Vision from truth,
But even his perception is not absolute,

And all are created through that truth,
He perceives all perceptions but perceptions perceive him not,
You know this to be true,
So again, do not like you have no clue! 

[comment] This contains the moral argument and others, and shows a way out of your doubts.

I'm very sorry you couldn't understand what I wrote to you, so I will offer this summary plus a few additional points for emphasis:

1) Atheists provided all the answers I needed.
2) I have no doubts at all that the theistic-style God does not exist.  It is both self-contradictory in its definitions and undermined by real-world observations.
3) So I know what you are saying is not true.  The truth does not equal God.
4) If you were honest, you might understand this too.  After all, you post at a site where atheists have been explaining all this to you in some detail.