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Subjective Morality?
RE: Subjective Morality?
It might be useful for you, Jorg...to lay out a simple primer on mereological nihilism (again), so that these chuckleheads can see what a compelling objection to realism (of any kind) even looks like.  

Wink

(additionally, so that they can see that a person arguing in good faith can at least concede that there is -something- to what the other position is describing)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Subjective Morality?
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RE: Subjective Morality?
(November 15, 2018 at 10:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I'll also point out that the proposition that quantitatively measurable propositions are objectively true is not a quantitatively measurable proposition and so practivism is self refuting.
...

Exactly. Thus the term 'objectively true' is kinda nonsensical. But 'quantitatively measurable propositions are quantitatively measurable' is tautological and also self-evident.

(November 15, 2018 at 10:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: ...
You might want to read up on the last two centuries of philosophy instead of burying your head in business books by Tom Peters.

Never heard of him but I'll check him out. Thanks.

Actually, I probably won't do that... business books are incredibly tedious.
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
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RE: Subjective Morality?
If the phrase "objectively true "is nonsensical, it's nonsensical..but insisting on it being selectively nonsensical...and replacing it with what would be a functionally equivalent set of terms is..itself, nonsensical.  

As I and others have noted, realism is not a position that states that some moral proposition is more real, more objective, or more true than any other - only that it is just as real, just as objective, and just as true as any other.   They all stand or fall together, in that respect - including every comment left in this thread and purported to be a fact of any matter...including, in point of fact (if there are facts, lol) the notion that the phrase "objectively true" is nonsensical.

We've done nothing more or less, in any of this..than to burn all facts to the ground in order to deny the contents of our moral intuitions, provided by our conscience.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Subjective Morality?
(November 15, 2018 at 11:25 am)DLJ Wrote:
(November 15, 2018 at 10:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I'll also point out that the proposition that quantitatively measurable propositions are objectively true is not a quantitatively measurable proposition and so practivism is self refuting.
...

Exactly.  Thus the term 'objectively true' is kinda nonsensical.  But 'quantitatively measurable propositions are quantitatively measurable' is tautological and also self-evident.

Ooh, so close. I'd have to ask what it's self-evident of, but I'd just get another bullshit answer. If it's not objectively true, then why should I give a fuck about it?

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RE: Subjective Morality?
(November 15, 2018 at 10:57 am)Khemikal Wrote: ...so that these chuckleheads can see what a compelling objection to realism (of any kind) even looks like.  

/thread
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RE: Subjective Morality?
One thing that grinds my gears is the notion that "subjective" must equal "arbitrary." That is, anyone can make up her or his own morality on the spot. But this is bullshit even with regards to subjectivity. Yes, someone can "make up a rule" so to speak. But just because one can do such a thing artificially, doesn't mean his inner consciousness of the moral law is true. On the other hand, someone else who adheres to a principle he subjectively perceives is right, can very well rule out any artificial concepts which do not jive with the inherent 'rightness' of his subjective moral valuation.

Morality is subjective, in my opinion at least. If there were no minds there would be no moral obligations or laws. But just because moral laws are dependent on minds doesn't make them arbitrary because minds themselves are not arbitrary, at least not completely. Two people with very different backgrounds can both perceive the emotion of sadness and come to similar conclusions regarding it. In that sense the moral claims we make on each other are inter-subjective, and this should be enough for morality, imo.
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RE: Subjective Morality?
(December 31, 2018 at 11:52 pm)Dimmesdale Wrote: If there were no minds there would be no moral obligations or laws.

If there were no minds there wouldn't be any logic either. That doesn't make logic subjective, does it? Is an argument logically valid because you like the way it sounds? No! There are objective criteria with which we deem something logical or illogical.

If there were no minds there would be no mathematical proofs, nor any scientific laws (ie. principles that we use to understand the natural world). That doesn't make science or math subjective, does it? The existence of gravity can only be understood by a mind, but that doesn't make it a matter of opinion.

Of course, you could go the route of saying that logic and math are "useful fictions"... ie... "not real without minds that acknowledge them and make them real." But that doesn't mean that they are subjective, does it? 2+2=4 is NOT a matter of opinion, no matter how you slice it.

The argument that morality is subjective and the argument that morality is "something we just made up" are two different arguments. To me, the former (moral subjectivism) is absolutely untrue. The latter (moral nihilism) may be true, but I err on the side of moral realism.
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RE: Subjective Morality?
(December 31, 2018 at 11:52 pm)Dimmesdale Wrote: One thing that grinds my gears is the notion that "subjective" must equal "arbitrary." That is, anyone can make up her or his own morality on the spot. But this is bullshit even with regards to subjectivity. Yes, someone can "make up a rule" so to speak. But just because one can do such a thing artificially, doesn't mean his inner consciousness of the moral law is true. On the other hand, someone else who adheres to a principle he subjectively perceives is right, can very well rule out any artificial concepts which do not jive with the inherent 'rightness' of his subjective moral valuation.

Morality is subjective, in my opinion at least. If there were no minds there would be no moral obligations or laws. But just because moral laws are dependent on minds doesn't make them arbitrary because minds themselves are not arbitrary, at least not completely. Two people with very different backgrounds can both perceive the emotion of sadness and come to similar conclusions regarding it. In that sense the moral claims we make on each other are inter-subjective, and this should be enough for morality, imo.

One can have a subjective experience or knowledge of an objective fact, or one can have a subjective experience or preference which doesn't reflect an objective fact or thing in the world. If I have a subjective experience of a chair, that's a subjective experience of an objective fact, and therefore not arbitrary. However if I experience the belief that chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream, that does not reflect an objective fact and is therefore arbitrary. When most people suggest that morality is subjective and therefore arbitrary, they are meaning the second usage of the term 'subjective'. So your objection is a confusion about how people are using words, not an actual objection to the idea that subjective things, meaning the latter sense, are arbitrary.
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RE: Subjective Morality?
Hi guys and gals,
I just wanted to apologise for dropping out of the conversation just as it was getting interesting.
I have a login problem when using my laptop and it’s only just occurred to me that I can use my phone.
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
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