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Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
#11
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
If I was blazed I would attempt answering/reading this thread, as it is im dry! So stick your philosophy bullshit up your arse!
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#12
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
Well you may not have answered or read the thread, but you still replied and at least ostensibly judged it. *tut tut*
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#13
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
Wink

I'm just edgy. So I shall judge all I want. haha
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#14
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
Be my guest, since your posts are entertaining they don't count as spam despite being irrelevant to the topic Wink
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#15
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!

Quote:rrelevant. Whether is or not, the question is: "Can you ultimately know why you don't believe?".
Yes you can. As a sapient being, capable of reason and understanding. If asked "do I know why I don't believe" I can answer and tell you. I don't believe in god because I know of no reason or evidence to believe. So yes, you can 'know' why you don't believe.

Quote: My point is, sure, you can say you don't believe because you're unconvinced. But isn't that pretty much just stating "I don't believe because I don't believe" and giving a non-answer?
I don't believe because I know of no reason or evidence. I am of a critical scientific mind. For an argument to be convincing, it must be of reason and evidence. It must be rational, and by that I mean in accordance with the principles of logic or reason; reasonable. My standards require reason, logic and credibility. It is very much down to the person in question. Some see rational in claims even though there is no evidence or credibility in it. Their 'rational' is not rational from my view point. I know why I don't believe. I have my reasons.

Quote:"Because I haven't known of a logical argument or anything that remotely convinces me. Simple!" - maybe it is simple, but it doesn't actually answer the question whatsoever.
But I do think it answers the question. "why don't you believe?" "I don't believe because there is nothing reasonable, logical or credible about it for it to be convincing for me". It is an answer. I have given an answer to the question at hand.

Quote:because I'm not convinced"
But I have answered why I'm not convinced. Which should of put an end to all the bloody why questions. Instead of sending it into an endless loop.

Quote: I no longer believe that I know why I don't believe in God.
But I know why I don't believe. I am self aware. I am capable of thought, reason and understanding. I can tell you in detail why I don't believe. There shouldn't be any why questions after.

Quote: I can't answer the question "Why don't I believe in God?".
I can and have.

Quote:"Why haven't I known of any evidence of God's existence?"
Probably because there is no evidence for god's existence. Maybe there is, but if there is any, it's probably totally unknown to us.

Quote:It is true that I, myself, am not aware of any evidence, I don't know of any evidence, for God's existence. God's existence isn't evident to ME. BUT: This does NOT mean that there necessarily ISN'T any evidence for God's existence. So once again, I've answered nothing:
But here you have given a reason. You have answered the question. Knowing whether there is evidence or not doesn't matter. You don't know of any evidence for a god or gods. While at the same time, you lack belief in it. You are an agnostic atheist.
Fill in the missing gaps - You do not know whether a god or gods exist, you do know know whether there is any evidence for such a thing. You lack belief in god(s) because______? Is it because of lack of evidence? Lack of credibility? Logic? All three? They are answers to the question at hand. The question had been asked, and the answer given. There shouldn't be an endless loop of "why".

Quote:I don't know why I don't believe.
Perhaps You cannot answer why exactly. Perhaps you just find the idea of a god to be too unbelievable to believe. I on the other hand can answer why exactly and in detail. I was once unsure whether I believed or not. The fact that it made little or no sense to me, gave me reason to reject it.

Quote:"I don't have a reason to believe because I don't have a reason to believe".
I don't have a reason to believe because I know of no reason to believe. It's still an answer.
I do not see a pink orb in my living room because I cannot see a pink orb in my living room.
How you would answer it? I do not see a pink orb in the living room because_______?

Quote:How do you know it's irrational, illogical and incredible?
For one invisible and pink is a contradiction and so leads to illogical and incredible. Tongue
Also pink bunnies, which is a form of life on earth which require certain conditions to live. What is the likely hood of them existing under the moon's surface? Where is the logic for advance/complex life to exist on a lifeless body. Especially life that is identical to life on earth? So yes, I can say it's irrational, illogical and incredible. Given the knowledge and the application of the principles of logic and reason.

Quote:But how can you really know what's rational to believe or not if you don't really know what is evident besides your own awareness and you're not actually aware of whether invisible pink rabbits actually exist or not?
Through knowledge of our reality with our sapient minds with the application of logic and reason. What we consider rational is based on what we know now.

Quote:But how can you know WHY nothing has convinced you?.
The same way I know why I do not see a pink orb hovering in my living room. I cannot see one. I do not believe in god because nothing has (for me at least) pointed to that conclusion. I know why I don't believe good sir. Tongue

---
Are you getting a slight head ake from all this thinking too? Big Grin

Quote:How do you know it defines all reason?
Sorry, I should of put all known reason to me. I do not know of a reason for which supports it.

Quote:I don't know why I don't believe in God because I don't know why I'm not convinced, I'm just not.
Then that is the difference between you and me. I can say why I don't believe but you can't. This is where the endless "why" question is coming from. You can't say why, but I can. I know why I don't believe.

Quote:Just because you believe something is unconvincing in no way implies that it is actually unrealistic or irrational.
True, which is why I've added the word "perhaps" quite a few times. I made no claim. It is an opinion.

Quote:Because creationists believe evolution is unconvincing does that imply that it is unrealistic or irrational?
Firstly, creationists are the biggest jokes on earth. (Had to say it! Big Grin) They reject anything that goes against their deluded beliefs. NO matter how well something is supported.
They don't excersise logic and reason. If they don't see a a pink orb, they'll still say they believe it's there.
I guess it's all down to what is rational to you. Their minds are filled with wishful thinking.

It depends on your standards. Will you need evidence and credibility to believe in a very large extraordinary claim? or not?

Quote:"Why don't I believe?" leads to the conclusion: "I don't know".
For you. Wink

Quote:So you haven't founded a convincing argument for God because you find God unconvincing?
Because for me, nothing I know of has pointed to the god conclusion. I do not see a pink orb in my living room because I cannot see a pink orb in my living room. Big Grin I do not believe in god because I know of no reason or evidence that points to the existence of a god.
---

Well that was fun.FSM Grin

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#16
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
(January 3, 2011 at 11:55 am)Ace Otana Wrote: Yes you can. As a sapient being, capable of reason and understanding. If asked "do I know why I don't believe" I can answer and tell you. I don't believe in god because I know of no reason or evidence to believe. So yes, you can 'know' why you don't believe.

You're missing my whole point. That begs the question "why don't you know of no reason or evidence to believe?" and the answer is either "I don't know" OR it leads to an infinite regress of paraphrases of "because there is no reason/evidence to believe". Which essentially means "I don't believe because I have no valid reason and I have no valid reason because I have no valid reason" - which is a non-answer because of what the word "because" means. You don't have a reason to believe because you don't have a reason to believe makes no sense.

So whether you answer with "I don't know" or whether you answer with a regress of paraphrases of "because I am unconvinced" or "because I have no valid reason to believe", or "because there is no evidence that I am aware of", in either case how do you know why you don't believe? If you answer with begging the question how is that a valid answer?

IMPORTANT 1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

E.G:

Wikipedia giving an example of the Begging the Question fallacy Wrote:Person 1: Bob is annoyed right now.
Person 2: How do you know?
Person 1: Well, because he is really angry.

How is that not analogous to:
Person 1: I know why I don't believe in God.
Person 2: How?
Person 1: Well, because I'm unconvinced.

?

IMPORTANT 2:

To help demonstrate why I think the above is begging the question, I shall point out how it also applying the other way around and thus demonstrate that circular reasoning in the logic is the only alternative to the begging the question fallacy:

Person 1: I know why I am unconvinced by the proposition "God exists".
Person 2: How?
Person 1: Well, because I in no way believe that the proposition "God exists" is true!

In which case, if you don't believe because you are unconvinced, and you are unconvinced because you don't believe, how is that not circular reasoning? And if it's not both but merely either one or the other, and so not circular reasoning, how is that not begging the question?

Thus,

A: "Why is X annoyed?" "because X is angry" and "Why is X angry?" "Because X is annoyed"

... is analogously fallacious to:

B: "Why don't I believe in God?" "Because I'm unconvinced." "Why am I unconvinced?" "Because I don't believe".


... Is the alternative to the begging the question fallacy.

Ace Wrote:My standards require reason, logic and credibility. It is very much down to the person in question. Some see rational in claims even though there is no evidence or credibility in it. Their 'rational' is not rational from my view point. I know why I don't believe. I have my reasons.

DvF demonstration of possible loop of infinite circular reasoning Wrote:Why don't I believe in God? Because I require rational reasons. Why? Because I'm rational. Why? Because I require rational reasons. Why? Because I'm rational. Why? Because I require rational reasons. Why? Because I'm rational. Why? Because I require rational reasons. Why? Because I'm rational. Why? Because I require rational reasons. Why? Because I'm rational. Why? Because I require reasons

So how do you actually know?


Quote:But I have answered why I'm not convinced.
As far as I am aware, you haven't done so without committing the begging the question fallacy. See above.

Quote: Which should of put an end to all the bloody why questions. Instead of sending it into an endless loop.

As far as I am aware, an endless loop is what it leads to, which is why we don't know.

Quote: I am capable of thought, reason and understanding.
I never said you weren't. But how is that relevant to the logic of my argument?

Quote: I can tell you in detail why I don't believe.

Maybe. You can try and fail or you can try and succeed. I am not aware of your success yet.

Quote:There shouldn't be any why questions after.

Why?

Quote: I can't answer the question "Why don't I believe in God?".

Ace Wrote:I can and have.
Yes, "but is that answer logically valid?" Is what I mean.

Ace Wrote:You have answered the question. Knowing whether there is evidence or not doesn't matter. You don't know of any evidence for a god or gods. While at the same time, you lack belief in it. You are an agnostic atheist.
I don't know why I am unaware of any evidence for the existence of god(s), so how can I use that itself as a valid answer for knowing why I don't believe?

DvF
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#17
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!

[/quote]

*Ace clicks fingers*
Right I'm gonna start injecting some humour into this.

Quote:You're missing my whole point. That begs the question "why don't you know of no reason or evidence to believe?"
This question will throw this whole thing into an endless circle. There could be no reason or evidence because there is none. "Why?", maybe because there is no god.

Quote:in either case how do you know why you don't believe?
Because I know what it takes for me to believe. Didn't see that coming did ya?! Tongue

Quote:if you don't believe because you are unconvinced, and you are unconvinced because you don't believe, how is that not circular reasoning?
if you don't believe because you are unconvinced, and you are unconvinced because there is no evidence, how is that circular reasoning?
I don't see a pink orb in the living room because I cannot see a pink orb in the living room. Why? - This is where the answer will start to repeat it self. I do not believe in god because nothing points to a god. It's simple and logical.

Quote:"Why is X annoyed?" "because X is angry" and "Why is X angry?" "Because X is annoyed"
Let me fix this.

"Why is X annoyed?" "because X is angry" and "Why is X angry?" "Because Ace fucked X's mum" "Why did Ace fuck X's mum" "Because X's mum is really hot" "Why is X's mum really hot" "Big boobs, great arse and one very wet fanny, need I say more?".
Tongue

Quote:"Why don't I believe in God?" "Because I'm unconvinced." "Why am I unconvinced?" "Because I don't believe".[/u]
"Why don't I believe in God?" "Because I'm unconvinced." "Why am I unconvinced?" "Because there is no evidence that I am aware of that points to a god".
I do not believe there is a pink orb in my living room because I can't see one. I don't believe in god because nothing that I know of points to a god. The 'why' question isn't really needed you know. The answer had been given for the question at hand. Why do I not know of any evidence? I am simply unaware of any. I can see how it can become an endless loop, I guess it depends if you make it into one!
---
I'm off for a hot bath.
I need to give my balls a good wash. Big Grin
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#18
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
You don't need a reason to not believe in god, not is the default. Burn no calories searching for a reason to not, the answer is as simple as inaction.

We aren't believing in not god we are suspending belief until a good reason to believe is forthcoming. That is how I think of it anyway. It makes my mother happier when I put it that way anyway. Smile Apparently she misses that fact that 25 years spent in church, bible study, church camps, and personal biblical study have since failed to yeild any argument and have, in fact, cemented my mind against the concept of god.
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#19
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
Ace:

Premise 1: Valid reasons to believe in God is valid evidence to believe in God.

Premise 2: Valid evidence to believe in God is valid reasons to believe in God.

Premise 3: You are convinced that God exists if you have reasons or evidence to believe that God exists.You are not convinced that God exists if you don't have reasons or evidence to believe that God exists.

Premise 4: If you are convinced you believe, if you are not convinced you don't believe.

Argument: If I ask the question "Why don't you know of a valid reason to believe in God?" and you answer with "Because I know of no valid evidence", and if I then ask the question "Why do you know of no valid evidence?" and you answer with "Because I know of no valid reasons to believe" you are succumbing to the circular reasoning fallacy. If you paraphrase "valid evidence" or "valid reason" with something else, you are committing the question begging fallacy.

So because can't answer either of those questions without committing a fallacy, you, according to the premises of my argument, therefore can't answer why you're not convinced, and therefore can't answer why you don't believe.

Conclusion: You don't know why you don't believe and nor do I.

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#20
RE: Why am I an agnostic atheist? I don't know!
[Image: 1232550426_worf%20face%20palm.gif]

*Ace puts on jacket and heads for the nearest strip club*
Night Evie.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
Reply



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