Lately stuck on WW2 history.

[Brian37]

The operators did report the blip up the chain of command however the officer on duty had been told of a flight of B-17's coming in that morning ( they arrived in the middle of the attack ) and assumed that was what they had detected.   

None of which excuses the failure of the Navy to have a combat air patrol up over the base or of the Army for parking the planes wing-to-wingtip to guard against saboteurs.

And yes, Roosevelt did expect a Japanese attack.  On the Philippines,  and they were tracking the Japanese invasion force heading south towards Malaya.

Nobody is disputing that. The documentary said that FDR was expecting inevitable war and a declaration of war. But anyone saying FDR let it happen is too much of a stretch for me. Both sides expected it, just not the US and Pearl Harbor. It didn't help that the diplomats sent to give FDR Japan's declaration failed to make that clear. Thus the famous line by one of their military, "I think we've woken a sleeping Giant".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?

Pvts. Lockard and Elliott reported to the "biggest return we've seen" to the Air Information Center just after 7 AM. Guess when all the regular staff left for breakfast?

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The operators did report the blip up the chain of command however the officer on duty had been told of a flight of B-17's coming in that morning ( they arrived in the middle of the attack ) and assumed that was what they had detected.   

There was no officer on duty at that time. The 2nd Lt. who was there, Kermit Tyler, was just there to "familiarize" with the setup. All the pilots had to do this.

None of which excuses the failure of the Navy to have a combat air patrol up over the base or of the Army for parking the planes wing-to-wingtip to guard against saboteurs.

The Navy wasn't responsible for patrolling the area around Oahu. That was the Army's job. The Army was on Oahu to allow the Navy to stand down when in port. Gen. Short lost sight of this mission.

And yes, Roosevelt did expect a Japanese attack.  On the Philippines,  and they were tracking the Japanese invasion force heading south towards Malaya.

The War Warning message went out on the 27th of Nov., IIRC.

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Nobody is disputing that. The documentary said that FDR was expecting inevitable war and a declaration of war. But anyone saying FDR let it happen is too much of a stretch for me. Both sides expected it, just not the US and Pearl Harbor. It didn't help that the diplomats sent to give FDR Japan's declaration failed to make that clear. Thus the famous line by one of their military, "I think we've woken a sleeping Giant".

The diplomats didn't know about the attack. http://ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/surprise.html

And the "sleeping giant" quote was fabricated by the producers of "Tora, Tora, Tora" to give the US audience a slightly upbeat ending.

[Brian37]

Shit, now watching another part of the series, this time, the bombing of Hamburg by our allies. 47,000 civilians killed. Again, translating a letter written by a female survivor, who basically said her flat(apt) building was flattened, fire all around her, wondering where her mother was, but couldn't even cry because she was numb at the sight of the " inconceivable horror" surrounding her.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Shit, now watching another part of the series, this time, the bombing of Hamburg by our allies. 47,000 civilians killed. Again, translating a letter written by a female survivor, who basically said her flat(apt) building was flattened, fire all around her, wondering where her mother was, but couldn't even cry because she was numb at the " inconceivable horror" surrounding her.

A bombing raid on Tokyo in March 1945 killed more people than either atomic bomb.

[Brian37]

Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?

Pvts. Lockard and Elliott reported to the "biggest return we've seen" to the Air Information Center just after 7 AM. Guess when all the regular staff left for breakfast?

---

The operators did report the blip up the chain of command however the officer on duty had been told of a flight of B-17's coming in that morning ( they arrived in the middle of the attack ) and assumed that was what they had detected.   

There was no officer on duty at that time. The 2nd Lt. who was there, Kermit Tyler, was just there to "familiarize" with the setup. All the pilots had to do this.

None of which excuses the failure of the Navy to have a combat air patrol up over the base or of the Army for parking the planes wing-to-wingtip to guard against saboteurs.

The Navy wasn't responsible for patrolling the area around Oahu. That was the Army's job. The Army was on Oahu to allow the Navy to stand down when in port. Gen. Short lost sight of this mission.

And yes, Roosevelt did expect a Japanese attack.  On the Philippines,  and they were tracking the Japanese invasion force heading south towards Malaya.

The War Warning message went out on the 27th of Nov., IIRC.

---

Nobody is disputing that. The documentary said that FDR was expecting inevitable war and a declaration of war. But anyone saying FDR let it happen is too much of a stretch for me. Both sides expected it, just not the US and Pearl Harbor. It didn't help that the diplomats sent to give FDR Japan's declaration failed to make that clear. Thus the famous line by one of their military, "I think we've woken a sleeping Giant".

The diplomats didn't know about the attack. http://ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/surprise.html  

And the "sleeping giant" quote was fabricated by the producers of "Tora, Tora, Tora" to give the US audience a slightly upbeat ending.

Fair enough, I did not know that. Thanks for the correction in all seriousness. I will avoid using that in the future. 

Bu

---

Shit, now watching another part of the series, this time, the bombing of Hamburg by our allies. 47,000 civilians killed. Again, translating a letter written by a female survivor, who basically said her flat(apt) building was flattened, fire all around her, wondering where her mother was, but couldn't even cry because she was numb at the " inconceivable horror" surrounding her.

A bombing raid on Tokyo in March 1945 killed more people than either atomic bomb.

Fuck, another fact I was not aware of. I didn't know we bombed Tokyo. If the non nukes killed more in that raid, you'd think with all that damage they'd have given up without the nukes.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I remember the look on the producer's face when the videographer asked him for the source of that quote. I imagine he was routinely forced to admit to making shit up.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Pvts. Lockard and Elliott reported to the "biggest return we've seen" to the Air Information Center just after 7 AM. Guess when all the regular staff left for breakfast?

---

There was no officer on duty at that time. The 2nd Lt. who was there, Kermit Tyler, was just there to "familiarize" with the setup. All the pilots had to do this.
The Navy wasn't responsible for patrolling the area around Oahu. That was the Army's job. The Army was on Oahu to allow the Navy to stand down when in port. Gen. Short lost sight of this mission.
The War Warning message went out on the 27th of Nov., IIRC.

---

The diplomats didn't know about the attack. http://ibiblio.org/pha/pha/misc/surprise.html  

And the "sleeping giant" quote was fabricated by the producers of "Tora, Tora, Tora" to give the US audience a slightly upbeat ending.

Fair enough, I did not know that. Thanks for the correction in all seriousness. I will avoid using that in the future. 

Bu

---

A bombing raid on Tokyo in March 1945 killed more people than either atomic bomb.

Fuck, another fact I was not aware of. I didn't know we bombed Tokyo. If the non nukes killed more in that raid, you'd think with all that damage they'd have given up without the nukes.

Google ‘Operation Meetinghouse’. If the Allies had lost the war, everyone connected with this raid would have been executed for war crimes. Made the firebombing of Dresden look like a picnic.

Boru

[Brian37]

Fair enough, I did not know that. Thanks for the correction in all seriousness. I will avoid using that in the future. 

Bu

---

Fuck, another fact I was not aware of. I didn't know we bombed Tokyo. If the non nukes killed more in that raid, you'd think with all that damage they'd have given up without the nukes.

Google ‘Operation Meetinghouse’. If the Allies had lost the war, everyone connected with this raid would have been executed for war crimes. Made the firebombing of Dresden look like a picnic.

Boru

Funny you should mention Dresden, that same hour mentioned it after Hamburg. Churchill caught lots of shit for Dresden.

But, I can tell you, having been married to a Japanese woman, knowing her grandparents were on the enemy's side. It is still sad, regardless, to know that our governments respectively get pitted against each other. Fat Man and Little Boy ended the war, but it is horrifying in our species, knowing what decent people her  grandparents were, and how they raised her parents, thus her, and hating in the end myself, how our species can get to such horrifying events.

I find war important to history, not for the glorifying of such, but important to understand so we can avoid it as much as possible.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar

[Brian37]

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar

One of the horrifying film clips of the invasion of Japan, was how deeply indoctrinated the civilians were. Propaganda by the state had many believing that if Japan lost, the allies would brutalize their population, rape their women and enslave the captured. Thus leading to horrible actions like this.

WARNING, not for the faint of heart.......