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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 10:15 am
This is a bit off topic here to the very interesting conversation taking place but it refers to my original objective of trying to define atheism.
So most people here say that atheism is the disbelief in a God.
In many eastern religions they don't worship Gods. Buddhasim, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism.
Are these people atheists?
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 10:30 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 10:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 24, 2019 at 10:15 am)Agnostico Wrote: In many eastern religions they don't worship Gods. Buddhasim, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism.
Are these people atheists?
Yes, though it would be more accurate to sub belief in for worship. Mostly because there are people who do believe in gods, but don't worship them. You know, like most christians. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 10:42 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 10:44 am by Acrobat.)
(January 24, 2019 at 10:13 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: (January 24, 2019 at 8:03 am)Acrobat Wrote: If most people here merely lack a belief one way or the other when it’s come to the question of God, they’d fall under the category of agnostic. Agnostic atheists, yeah. They do, they keep telling folks that, but there's a type of person that's just so fucking dense they'll never hear it, lol.
Quote:If they believe God doesn’t exist, they’d fall under the category of atheist.
Yep, also atheists..though they could -also- be agnostic atheists. The only people who -aren't- agnostic atheists are the ones who -know- that god does not exist. Gnostic atheism.
No there’s two definitions being employeed here, the traditional distinctions based on belief vs lack of belief, and one in the newer conception where the distinction between knowing and not knowing is emphasized.
The traditional definitions lack a distinction between knowing and not knowing, the newer definition lacks a distinction between believing and not believing.
Depending on which distinction you find most useful, one definition is more useful than the other.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 11:57 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 11:58 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 24, 2019 at 10:42 am)Acrobat Wrote: No there’s two definitions being employeed here, the traditional distinctions based on belief vs lack of belief, and one in the newer conception where the distinction between knowing and not knowing is emphasized. Here where? I think that the one definition is just fine. A person who doesn't believe in gods is an atheist. A person who does is not.
Quote:The traditional definitions lack a distinction between knowing and not knowing, the newer definition lacks a distinction between believing and not believing.
.......? You mean agnostic atheism and gnostic atheism?
Quote:Depending on which distinction you find most useful, one definition is more useful than the other.
They refer to separate things. One refers to the status of a persons belief, the other the status of their knowledge...neither refers to what you're looking for a distinction for, k, I getcha.
There's a third set of terms you might find helpful, strong and weak. A strong agnostic atheist doesn't believe in gods...they don't know for sure whether gods exist but they -strongly- believe to the contrary. Alot of atheists are this type of atheist by reference to at least -one- god, though they may defer on the subject of some more general god notion.
Don't even get me started on blonde nine fingered six foot plaid wearing weak gnostic atheists. It's alot of qualifiers, you know? Probably take fewer words to just ask a person.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 12:31 pm
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 12:49 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(January 23, 2019 at 9:51 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist etc.. is very recently developed concept.
But lets ask a question. If atheists who know God doesn't exist and atheists who don't know if God doesn't exist, can be separated by the gnostic agnostic distinction.
What separates atheists who believe God doesn't exist, and those who don't believe God exists? What term should people use when referring to those who believe God doesn't exist, from those who lack a belief one way or the other?
Previously this distinction was made between agnos"" ticism, and atheism. If the new conception was to provide further clarity it failed to do so.
Yeah, such a recent concept, that agnostic atheism.
"The atheist may however be, and not unfrequently is, an agnostic. There is an agnostic atheism or atheistic agnosticism, and the combination of atheism with agnosticism which may be so named is not an uncommon one."
"If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist – an agnostic-atheist – an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."
--Robert Flint, Croall Lecture of 1887-1888, published in 1903 as 'Agnosticism'
Got it from looking up 'agnostic atheism' on Wikipedia. So much research it took to find the facts of the matter! And FYI, Ingersoll was saying basically the same thing in 1885. So VERY recent....
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 12:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 12:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 12:58 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 1:05 pm by Mister Agenda.)
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 1:06 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 1:10 pm by Acrobat.)
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
January 24, 2019 at 1:06 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 1:12 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(January 24, 2019 at 2:30 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Guy, I don't know which version you adhere to. 15 years ago it was a lot different. Now there are all many versions. Anyway, you told me I couldn't show one, and I did. What more do you want? Mission accomplished.
Guy, 15 years ago, anyone who didn't believe in any God or gods was still an atheist.
(January 24, 2019 at 10:15 am)Agnostico Wrote: This is a bit off topic here to the very interesting conversation taking place but it refers to my original objective of trying to define atheism.
So most people here say that atheism is the disbelief in a God.
In many eastern religions they don't worship Gods. Buddhasim, Confucianism, Taoism, Jainism.
Are these people atheists?
Some of them are. Individual members of the religion can be theists or atheists. It might be a fair generalization to say that neither theism nor atheism is a requirement to be a member in good standing of those religions.
For a Western equivalent, I'd add Unitarian Universalism.
(January 24, 2019 at 10:42 am)Acrobat Wrote: No there’s two definitions being employeed here, the traditional distinctions based on belief vs lack of belief, and one in the newer conception where the distinction between knowing and not knowing is emphasized.
The traditional definitions lack a distinction between knowing and not knowing, the newer definition lacks a distinction between believing and not believing.
Depending on which distinction you find most useful, one definition is more useful than the other.
'New' as in at least 134 years old. Catch up, dude.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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